Joseph Smith, 1905– ?

Joe Smith was the husband of renowned singer Phoebe Smith. He sang, and played fiddle and melodeon.

The 1939 Register gives his date of birth as 4^th February 1905. When he married Phoebe in October 1930 his father was shown as Manuel (presumably short for Emmanuel) Smith, Labourer, Deceased. Possibly this was the Manuel Smith who, as a six-year-old, was found by census enumerators residing with his parents and four brothers at Hintons Cottages, Barnes, in Surrey. The older members of the family were all listed as “Travellers (Hawkers)”.

Joe met Phoebe at hop-picking time in 1929.

Joe: Well, round the campfire at night after we finished hop-picking. She come down to see my sister-in-law, you see, to have a word or two with her, I suppose. And I sat there playing the violin. And we started speaking, and…

Phoebe: My husband, he started to talk about the hop picking, and I was rather bashful and shy.  And I didn’t know much to say at all. As a matter of fact, I was afraid, really, to speak to him, thinking my father and mother would hear me.

Joe: Well… I thought you were shy and so was I.

Phoebe: I were really smiling at him playing the fiddle, you know, and his brother, you see. Keep looking at me and he keep nodding his head, you see, ‘awards ‘im playing this fiddle, because his brother just couldn’t stand the row. We were grinning at each other, you know, but at the time being I never had any more thought of courting or marrying him than flying. And then he said to me “I’d like to write to you when I go home, would you  like to write to me?” I said “Well, you can write and I’ll answer your letters”. And then next year, they come down hop-picking and you said to me, “Would you marry me?” I said, “Well, I’m not old enough really. I’m only seventeen”. So he said there’s lots of girls and boys get married at seventeen and eighteen.

Joe: She was a trouble. I kept writing, you know? And she kept saying she’d see, and all this sort of thing and I got fed up. And every weekend I had off I used to go down there. Never used to go down home because I wouldn’t dare, you see. Her father wouldn’t let her out if I went down home. She say to me “Well, I’ll meet you at the bus stop at Canterbury”, which was the nearest point, you see, where the buses come in, and that’s how we done our courting, and we never did go to the pictures. ¹

After a year of this rather frustrating courtship, they ran off together and settled at West Tilbury in Essex. They were married on 27^th October 1930, and their first son, Joseph (later to be known as ‘Big Joe’) was born in 1932.

Phoebe recalled

We had our babies in the first year we were married and I was very ill for quite a long time after the baby was born. His name was Joe. I remember when he were borned, the doctor said to me “You’ve got a lovely baby boy”. He goes “8 pound and a quarter”. Of course, I was thrilled to death. He had long black hair, you know, and beautiful red, rosy cheeks, lovely pink complexion. And I said “Can I hold him?” He said “Yes” and ‘course I hold him for a little while and they brought the cot in, put him to bed. But oh, he was a lovely babe. But he never did cry. And the nurses used to call him ‘Peaceful Joe’.

And, all at once, you know, as I stopped there having my breakfast the nurse come running in and she said “I’ve just had your husband on the phone, Mrs. Smith”, she said. “My goodness”, she said., “I thought”, she said, “he were going to come right down the phone when I told him you had a lovely boy”.

To which Joe added

Well, I didn’t know anything about it, you see. I was working and I know she went to hospital because I went with her, practically. And she was ill overnight, you see. Well next morning I rang through, at the time when the babe was born… First time being a father, I didn’t know what to make of it.

In course of time Joe and Phoebe had seven sons: Joe, Henry, Israel (Nick), John, Emmanuel (Manny), Fred and Tom. Joe’s birth was registered in the Croydon district. The births of subsequent children were registered in the Billericay, Orsett, Thurrock or Chelmsford districts of Essex, with the youngest, Thomas being registered at Ipswich, Suffolk in 1953.

By the time of the September 1939 Register Joe had found them a home at 57 St Chad’s Road, Tilbury, Essex. His occupation was given as “Caterpillar Driver – Oil Co”. He was navvying with pick and shovel at the start of the war, but then  moved on to operating a D8 Caterpillar for around eighteen months:

And of course working one day and this machine come on there, this new machine. And it’s only about the second one in the country then. The D8 Caterpillar, a big Caterpillar, the D8 Caterpillar with a 12 yard scraper at the back. And we was cutting chalk, you see. And I stood looking at this machine and the foreman says to me, then – well I was interested in it – he said, “Do you think you could make a go of that?” And I said “Yes”. “Well,” he said, “go on, get on with it”.

This may have been a sedentary job, but it was physically demanding, and with a 180 horse power engine constantly revving it was so loud that Joe had to get off and walk away from the machine before he could hear what anyone was saying to him.

I have come ‘ome of a night time with, with my arms aching so I could hardly make a cigarette. Arm work all the time. It’s a sitting down job, but you have a strain on your arms all the time.

He also got diesel rash from working on the machine.

I had diesel rash. And your face all comes out. So I couldn’t shave about six weeks.

His war work for the Air Ministry took him to Scotland at one point.

So I went to Scotland. I thought it was  beautiful. I used to walk down Princes Street Garden. I think it was the wonderfullest place I ever been.

The work was even harder, however, as the frosty ground was so hard “we have to rip it up with the rippers before we can pick it up”.

At some point around 1943 Phoebe and Joe moved to Melton near Woodbridge, and this is where they remained for the rest of their lives. An obituary of his son Nick recalled that

It wasn’t a particularly easy childhood, the family were bombed out of 2 houses during the war, which led his father Joe, to come up to Suffolk and buy some land in Melton –  now named Smithfields – just opp Fairhead and Sawyer. Following the family tradition, they moved out of the home each spring, to work in the fields and come harvest time, Nick would be fruit picking and hop picking, before returning to Melton for the winter.²

In 1952 Joe was fined £2 for keeping two dogs without a licence. Reporting this, the local newspaper described him as a firewood merchant,³ but he subsequently moved into the scrap-metal business, also selling any antiques that Phoebe picked up – “I like to keep buying plenty. I can keep selling plenty then. And you earn plenty of money. Love it”. In addition, the family continued to do seasonal agricultural work.

Frank Purslow, writing in 1970, said:

Near a small Suffolk market town is a well-conducted scrap metal business run by Joe Smith and some of his sons. Next to the yard, in a neat garden, stands the Smiths’ bungalow (built mostly by family labour) surrounded by the trailers of the Smith boys and their families.⁴

Mike Yates, who began to visit the Smiths a little later in the 1970s wrote:

In those days Phoebe and her husband Joe were living in a bungalow at the side of a moderately busy road. There was a small scrap yard at the side of their home, where Joe and his sons worked.⁵

They had also kept a caravan some eighty miles away at Potton in Bedfordshire, as reported in the Biggleswade Chronicle, 22^nd October 1971:

Wants to keep his caravan on Potton site

Pressing his case to be allowed to keep his caravan on land at Myers Road, Potton, a man told a planning inquiry recently he had nowhere else to go, if he had to leave the site.

Mr. Joseph Smith had asked Biggleswade RDC for permission to station his caravan on the land, but the council, acting for the county council, have refused.

Mr. Smith said he lived in the caravan with his wife and two children. For 28 years he lived at Woodbridge, Suffolk, but he frequently came to the Potton area to work in agriculture in the summer. In the winter he dealt in wood, scrap metal, and did casual farm work. He would rather have a base in Bedfordshire than move back to Woodbridge each winter.

“I have tried to buy a house in this area but I have been unsuccessful, as I am unable to get a mortgage. I have no regular income,” he said.

He bought the land in 1970, and at the time there was a caravan on it, occupied by a Mr. Ward.

SCREENED

His caravan cost £1,450, and it has mains water, bathroom, basin and flush toilet, it is not connected to the mains. There was also an outside toilet, and a soakaway dealt with surface water.

A hedge at the front of the site screened it from the road, and there was a railway embankment at the rear. He did not bring to the site any scrap metal and it was not his intention to do so.

Mr. A. W. Dennis, 2 Blackbird Street, Potton, county councillor for Potton, said the nearest approved caravan site was at Henlow. There was one at Stratton Park, Biggleswade, but that had numerous restrictions, and the county council been unsuccessful in attempts to get people on to this site.

The land on which the caravans stand was used as a rubbish dump until Mr. Smith took it, and his use of the land represented an improvement.

He owned the land before Mr. Smith — it was handed down to him in his grandfather’s will. He went to considerable expense to clear the ground and then sold it.

Mr. Peter England, assistant area planning officer, said the county council’s policy for Potton was for rounding off and infilling only within the existing limits. Mr. Smith’s land was outside what was regarded as the present and reasonable future development limits.

Any development outside this limit would have to be in the essential interests of agricultural management, and this had not been shown.

Residential caravans should be located on approved sites, on which suitable facilities were available.

Answering Mr. Timothy Sills, who represented Mr. Smith, Mr. England said this was not a “down” on caravans. The position would have been the same if Mr. Smith had applied to build a house on the site.

Joe is quoted here as saying that he and Phoebe had lived at Woodbridge for 28 years, and from this we can deduce that they had moved there in around 1943.

Peter Kennedy was given Phoebe and Joe’s details by various of her Scamp relations in Kent. He first visited them in 1954:

May 26th Wednesday – May 28th Friday: To Woodbridge Area. To Melton

Called on Smith’s (gypsies) – name given by Scamp’s in Kent — at first told they had moved! Eventually discovered that Joe Smith would be back later but was out scrap-metal dealing.

[…]

Spent evening with Joe Smith and wife (Mrs Smith is sister of Mrs Smith we recorded at Rainham and of Mrs Stanley alias Mrs Bird). Arranged recording evening Sunday. Joe Smith plays reels, hornpipes etc. on the fiddle — our first gipsy fiddler.⁶

The recording session planned at that time appears not to have taken place, and he was unsuccessful once again in 1955:

JUNE 15th. Left London and collected caravan at Woodbridge. Were not able to record Smiths. (gypsy singer and fiddler) as they were away for a few days ⁷

Kennedy finally managed to record Phoebe’s singing on Sunday 9^th July 1956, although “Joe her husband had unfortunately hurt his hand in the meantime and was unable to play step-dance tunes on fiddle”.⁸ Joe did contribute to the conversation, however, and can be heard talking on Kennedy’s Folktracks release I am a Romany, (Folktrax FTX100, 1975). Kennedy later wrote

Although Phoebe & Joe were living in a bungalow with hop-plants in the garden, they still had their wagons there, alongside their scrap-metal business, and most of the chat and singing was around the campfire.⁹

Kennedy returned to make further recordings in 1962, and it was presumably on this occasion that he finally managed to record Joe playing the fiddle. On one of these visits he also recorded their eldest son Joe singing ‘The Riddle Song’ (Roud 330), and playing harmonica for Phoebe to dance to.

Songs

• Lavender (Roud 854)
• Oxford City (Roud 218)
• The Squire and the Gypsy (Roud 229)

1. This, and subsequent direct quotations are from the cassette I am a Romany, Folktrax FTX100 (1975) ↩︎
2. Israel (Nick) Smith, Obituary, The Grundisburgh and District News, Summer 2017, https://www.grundisburghnews.org.uk/Obituaries/IsraelSmith.pdf ↩︎
3. Suffolk Chronicle, 23 May 1952 ↩︎
4. Frank Purslow, notes to Once I Had a True Love, Topic TSDL193 (1970) ↩︎
5. Mike Yates, notes to The Yellow Handkerchief, Veteran VT136CD (2001) ↩︎
6. Peter Kennedy, report to Marie Slocombe headed Recording Trip: The Border Country: June-July 1954, https://www.peterkennedyarchive.org/1954-2/northumberland-1954/  ↩︎
7. Peter Kennedy, report to Marie Slocombe headed Report: 1955 Scottish trip including Orkney Islands, https://www.peterkennedyarchive.org/1955-2/orkneys-1955/ ↩︎
8. Peter Kennedy, Report by Peter Kennedy on collecting trip to East Anglia, July 1956, https://www.peterkennedyarchive.org/1956-2/east-anglia-1956/ ↩︎
9. Notes to I am a Romany, Folktracks FTX100 (1975), https://folktrax-archive.org/menus/cassprogs/100smith.htm ↩︎

William Scamp 1851–1931

Bill Scamp was the father of the singers Phoebe Smith and Charlie Scamp, and he was the source of some of the songs in Phoebe’s repertoire, including ‘Captain Thunderbolt’.

He was born – according to the information at findagrave.com – at Selling on 18^th December 1851. He was the son of Riley Scamp and Sarah, née Lee. The 1861 census found the family living “In Tents, Broom Street, Graveney, Faversham”. Riley was listed as “Vagrant”. With him were three sisters and five brothers, their ages ranging from one to seventeen. Both William and his parents have proved elusive when searching the 1871 census, but in 1881 Riley and Sarah were in a “Gipseys Tent” at South Wall, Deal, while William was recorded at “New England under a Tent, Mersham”. His occupation was given as “Cutter & brazier” and he had with him two daughters and two sons, aged between 1 and 6: Clara Ann, Oliver, Betsy and George.

The Findagrave website records that in 1873 he married Louisa Lee, the daughter of Henry Lee and Mary Riley. She was born at Greenhithe on 10^th May 1850, and bore William no fewer than sixteen children between 1870 and 1890 (this discrepancy between the birth of their first child and the date of their marriage rather flies in the face of the normal assertions – made for instance by Jasper Smith – that once a man and woman lay together they were considered married in the eyes of the Romany community). Sadly, one week after giving birth to her final child in 1892, she was admitted to Cane Hill Asylum, Coulsdon, Surrey. She died there on 26^th Feb 1892, aged just 41, and was buried in the hospital cemetery.¹

A couple of years after Louisa’s death Bill found himself in court and, subsequently, in prison. The Sussex Daily News, 26^th September 1894, reported on his initial court hearing as follows:

REMARKABLE CHARGES OF THEFT.— William Scamp Mathews, a gipsy, was charged with stealing a brown mare, valued £12, at Crowborough, in October, 1893, the animal being the property of Frank Tompsett. Prosecutor said he turned the mare out in a field on October 12th, 1893, about 150 yards from his house, and fastened the gate. The next morning the mare was missing. On October 18th prosecutor and P.C. Allchorn went to New Cross, and found the mare in the yard of a person named Price. Witness did not know the prisoner. James Botton, of New Cross, deposed that he hired some stabling of Mr. Price. Prisoner, in October last year, drove up with the horse and wanted to sell it. Witness purchased the horse, cart, and harness for £6, and prisoner gave him a receipt for the money. Witness suspected subsequently that the horse, etc., had been stolen, and asked for his money back from Mathews. The latter said he had only £5 left, but would borrow the other and let him have it. Witness, however, saw no more of the man or the money. Witness gave up the horse and cart to Tomsett when the latter called with the police at New Cross. Prisoner here asked the Bench to make things light for him, as he had a lot of children, who were without a mother. He would not admit, however, that he had intended to steal the horse and cart. John Price, of Hale-street, Deptford, deposed that he let stables for hire. He remembered seeing a man drive up to his yard in October last year, and offer to sell a horse, cart, and harness, but witness did not purchase them. Witness had his suspicions, and informed the police of the matter. Witness had given the horse at his yard some good Deptford oats and beans, something better than Crowborough toppings (laughter). P.C. Allchorn deposed to finding the horse and cart at New Cross, and said he received Mathews on Monday week from the police at Tonbridge. Prisoner said he did not know where Crowborough was, but afterwards stated that he had been at Crowborough 14 years ago. Witness, however, had seen prisoner at Crowborough many times. Mathews was committed for trial at next Sussex Quarter Sessions.—He was next charged with stealing a light cart, valued at £12, from Thomas Smith, farmer, of Crowborough, on October, 1893. Prosecutor said he missed the cart from his yard at Crowborough, and had since identified it as his property. The previous witness Tompsett gave evidence as to finding the cart at New Cross, and P.C. Allchorn corroborated. Mathews was committed toc trial on this charge also.—Prisoner was further charged with stealing harness, valued at £2, from Job Smith. Job Smith, a dealer, said the harness was brass-mounted, and had been stolen from under a van at Crowborough on October 13th, 1893. The harness stolen was worth £2, and he identified it as his property. Prisoner was also committed for trial on this charge.

Essentially the same facts were rehearsed at the full trial, as reported in the Surrey Mirror, 20^th October 1894

STEALING A CART : ROTHERFIELD

William Scamp, alias Mathew, 42, labourer, was indicted for feloniously stealing a mare, the property of Frank Tomsett, at Rotherfield, on October 12th, 1893; also for stealing on October 12th, 1893, a set of harness, the property of Job Smith; for stealing on October 18th, 1893, a cart, the property of Henry Smith.—Mr. W. W. Grantham prosecuted.—The charge of stealing the cart was first taken, and Mr. Henry Smith deposed to missing the vehicle on the day in question. He afterwards recovered it from the police.—A witness, named Botten, deposed to buying a cart from the prisoner in October 1893. He subsequently found something was wrong, and handed the cart over to the police.—P.C. Hawthorne said he received information about the matter about twelve months ago. About a month ago he saw prisoner at Crowborough, and arrested him.—Prisoner was found guilty, and a previous conviction was proved by a warder of the Canterbury prison.—The other charges were not proceeded with.—Prisoner asked for leniency on the ground that he had a large family, and no mother to look after them.— Sentenced to six months’ hard labour.

The previous conviction alluded to might have been for assault (Kentish Gazette, 12^th July 1892), or being drunk and disorderly (Kentish Gazette, 20^th May 1893). But, unusually, in neither case does the newspaper report mention that the defendant was a Gypsy; and, besides, there was at least one other man by the name of William Scamp living in Canterbury around this time.

In pleading for leniency with regard to the charges of theft, Bill sates that “he had a large family, and no mother to look after them”. Now, clearly, the children by his first wife Louisa had lost their mother. However later census data suggests that Bill had quickly remarried following Louisa’s death. His second wife was Ann Jones, who had been born at Forest Row, in Sussex, and their first child, Sydney, was born at Bexhill, Sussex, in March 1893. The 1901 census found the family residing at Stowting Lane, Stowting. The children with them at this time are listed below.

Presumably Absey was the final child born to Louisa, Sidney the first born to Ann.

Bill’s occupation in this census was given as “Hawker & peg maker”. His 21-year-old son George was down as “Peg maker”. A marginal note made by the enumerator states “All these people are living in tents. Gipseys alias Pikeys”.

By the time their daughter Phoebe was born in 1913 her parents had partially settled, although they still travelled around Kent and Essex for seasonal agricultural work. Phoebe was born in Tanner Street, Faversham. She told Peter Kennedy that when she was about four years old they went to live in Herne Bay, then to Ramsgate, when she was about ten, and later to Ickham. In 1921, the census enumerators found the family at Mystole Encampment, near Chilham. The children living with Bill and Ann at that time were listed as Sydney, Nigger, Joe, Louisa, Charlie, Edward, Henry, with seven-year-old Phoebe being the youngest. They were at that time going by the name of Matthews.² The birth places listed for the children are evidence of the family’s peripatetic lifestyle: Bexhill, Hunton, Tenterden, Chilham and Faversham.

Bill Scamp died aged 79 at Minster-in-Thanet, on 22^nd May 1931. He was buried in the cemetery at Minster-in-Thanet.³

1. Louisa Lee Scamp, Find a Grave, https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/242771238/louisa-scamp ↩︎
2. 20^th century records generally have the surname as Matthews with two Ts, while those from the 19^th century appear to spell the name Mathews with one T. Since the family themselves were almost certainly illiterate, this can be put down to the preferences of census enumerator and others when transcribing the name. ↩︎
3. William Scamp, Find a Grave, https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/244201038/william-scamp ↩︎

Ann Scamp, née Jones, 1873–1940

Ann was the second wife of William Scamp, and the mother of the singers Phoebe Smith and Charlie Scamp. She was the source of several of the songs in Phoebe Smith’s repertoire, including ‘Young Ellender’ and ‘Higher Germany’.

In 1921, when the family were camping at Mystole near Chilham, they were listed in the census under their alternative surname of Matthews. Ann was 53 years old, and her birth place was given as Forest Row (between East Grinsted and Crowborough), in Sussex. Her occupation was given as “Licence Hawker”, although asked by Peter Kennedy if her mother was a travelling person, Phoebe replied “Well, not exactly, really”. “Betwixt and between?” suggested Kennedy – “Yeah, my grandfather, was a bailiff on a farm”. Kennedy later noted that Phoebe’s mother was “Annie Jones, a wardrobe dealer from Crowborough, Sussex”.¹

Ann and Bill must have married shortly after the death of his first wife Louisa in 1892, given that their first son, Sydney, was born in March 1893. Bill Scamp died in 1931. In September 1939 the widowed Ann, along with her son Sidney – both still using the Matthews surname – were recorded as being in a caravan at Brook Gardens, Sevenscore, Minster. She died on 3^rd September 1940, aged 67 years, and was buried in All Saints Churchyard, Biddenden. Her gravestone includes the inscription “Dear Mum I will not forget you Phoebe”.²

1. Notes to I am a Romany, Folktracks FTX100 (1975), https://folktrax-archive.org/menus/cassprogs/100smith.htm ↩︎
2. Mary Ann Jones Matthews, Find a Grave, https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/244418813/mary_ann-matthews ↩︎

George Scamp, 1858– ?

When recorded by Peter Kennedy, after singing the song ‘Molly Varden’, Phoebe Smith said “My uncle used to sing that one”. The following conversation then ensued:

Peter Kennedy: Tell us about your uncle, then. His name was George?

Phoebe Smith: Well, his name was George Scamp. Yes. And he was really a great singer. He could sing any song, any style, you know, like a lady or a gentleman. He had a beautiful voice… voice of all… all types you know, all types of songs. He could really fit in and sing them lovely. And he yes, he used to sing that very well.

PK: He travelled the country, didn’t it?

PS: Yes he was a great traveller.

PK: And what part of the country did he used to…?

PS: Well, he used to travel all around England, you know, and of course, I mean, I was very young then, I don’t really know much about him. I used… come and see us, you know, he always used to make a fuss of me, pick me up and carry me in his arms and all that. But not really old enough then to know much about him, you see, ‘cause… I mean, I were the youngest one of the family, and of course they were all getting on [word indistinct] you see when I were growing up.

PK: Did he travel by himself or with another family or…?

PS: No, with his own family, just with his own family.

PK: In a waggon?

PS: Yes. Waggon, horse. Well, I mean, as the family grew up he had more you see. Two, two or three. Because he had a nice family and he had another son, he had a son named Henry, and oh, he were a marvellous singer. He was really a beautiful singer.¹

George Scamp was a younger brother of Phoebe’s father, William, and he was in his mid-fifties when Phoebe was born. He was baptised on 23^rd February 1858 at the church of Saints Peter & Paul, Charing. He was the son of Riley Scamp and Sarah, née Lee. The family’s residence at the time was given as “Camped in the Road in Westwell”. Three years later, at the time of the 1861 census, George was with his parents, five brothers and three sisters, “In Tents, Broom Street, Graveney, Faversham”.

It was probably the same George Scamp who, aged thirteen in 1871, the census enumerators found in one of several gypsy tents at Borstal Heath, Plumstead, Woolwich. His birth place was given as “Kent, Cherry” but that could easily have been a mishearing of Charing. The Head of the household was recorded as Salamander Scamp, a 24 year old woman, whose name does not appear in any other official records. With her were five brothers: Riely, Sampson, Cloranda, George and Sidney; and two sisters: Mary and Marrille. Their ages ranged from five to twenty four, and all were listed as “Hawker of bee hives etc.”

Ten years later he was back with his parents in East Kent, camped at South Wall, Deal. His father, Riley, was listed as “Grinder (artiz)”. George’s older brother Sampson was listed as having “No fixed occupation”, and this designation was probably intended to apply to the entries which followed his on the census – namely George, Mary, Marsala (presumably the “Marille” listed in the 1871 census) and Sidney.

He is next found in the 1921 census, at the age of 63 and 4 months, lodging in the house of Mrs Susan Harold Marsden, at Pine Hurst, Smeeth. His occupation was given as Labourer, with the note “Tramps from town to town Labourer”; “No fixed place” is given in the ‘Place of Work’ column. Boarding with him was a 61-year-old “General Dealer”, Gilderoy Scamp, who was, presumably, related in some way (incidentally, this same Gilderoy Scamp had been lodging with Mrs Marsden ten years earlier, when she was living in Cheriton).

George is shown in the 1921 census as being married – and we know from Phoebe Smith that he had a family, including a son named Henry – but, not unusually, no record of his marriage has been found. Likewise I have not positively identified his date of death; although, possibly, he was the George Scamp whose death was recorded at Romford in Essex in the second quarter of 1931.

1. I am a Romany, Folktrax FTX100 (1975) ↩︎

Charles Scamp, 1908–1988

Charlie Scamp was born on 14^th February 1908, and baptised at St Mary’s, Chilham on 25^th February. He was the son of William (Bill) Scamp and his second wife Ann (or Mary Ann), née Jones. He had at least three older brothers, and a number of half brothers and sisters, the children of Bill’s first wife Louisa. The family have proved elusive when looking for them in the 1911 census. In the 1921 census they were listed under their alternative surname of Matthews. They were encamped at Mystole, near Chilham; William Matthews was listed as “General Dealer”, Ann as “Licence Hawker”. 13-year old Charlie now had two younger brothers, Edward and Henry, and a younger sister, Phoebe, better known by her married name, Phoebe Smith. Phoebe recalled that the family had moved to Herne Bay when she was about four years old (i.e. around 1917), and later they went to live in Ramsgate (circa 1923), then to Ickham. There were numerous families of Scamps in East Kent, some settled in Canterbury, others in Dover. Charlie’s family would meet up with other kin on their seasonal moves around the country – in the words of Phoebe’s son Manny

we would spend a couple of months here to work, then move on to another area for the next harvest, and we’d meet up with our aunties and uncles and cousins. It would be Essex, near Chelmsford for the sugarbeeting, Kent for the cherries, apples, plums and pears, then up to the Fens for the potatoes.¹

By September 1939 Charlie was married, and living in a hut at Three Chimneys Farm, Sissinghurst. His wife’s name was Mary, and it seems very likely that she was the Mary Hilden whose marriage to a Charles Scamp was registered in the Dartford district in the final quarter of 1932. Records in the Medway Archives show that the couple married at All Souls, Crockenhill on 15^th October 1932. The groom’s age occupation was “Labourer”, and his residence appears to be “Halbury Corner”. His age was given as 22, which was close to Charlie’s actual age; his father’s name was William Scamp, deceased – and we know that Charlie’s father Bill died in 1931.

The 1939 Register shows that Charlie and Mary had a daughter, also Mary, born in September 1933. There were probably two other children as well – there are two records marked “The record for this person is officially closed”, i.e. these people were still living when the entries were last checked.²

Charlie’s occupation in 1939 was given as “Wood Merchant On own a/c”, and he seems to have continued in this trade for the rest of his working life.

Peter Kennedy, in company with his aunt Maud Karpeles, met Charlie and recorded seven songs from him in January 1954. On 14^th January, the first day of their trip, they had visited “Mr. and Mrs. Henry Scamp at Goldwell Farm, near Biddenham” (actually Biddenden), and on 15^th they went “To Mrs. Stanley (Bird) living in a caravan on Mrs. Stern’s farm, 3, Chimneys, Betenham, near Sissinghurst”. Mrs Stanley was probably Charlie’s sister Mary, also known as Polly; she gave the two collectors details of where to find her sister, Phoebe Smith.

Then over the weekend of 16^th – 17^th January

To Mr and Mrs. Hilden, behind Denaway Cafe at bottom of hill down from Detling Aerodrome before Sittingbourne. Then to Scamps at Lower Halstow and then to Bill Scamp at Tonge, who also had a bad throat. Finally to the Scamps at Chartham Hatch.

 Recorded Charlie Scamp at The Royal Oak³

As happens quite frequently with Kennedy, there is some confusion over the actual date these recordings were made. The report he sent to Marie Slocombe at the BBC doesn’t actually say whether he met Charlie Scamp on 16^th or 17^th January; while the archived Folktrax website⁴ – and also the catalogue of the British Library Sound Archive⁵, where the original recordings are now deposited – has 15^th January as the date of recording. At any event, Kennedy recorded seven songs from Charlie, including one in Anglo-Romani, and also recorded him talking in Romani with his younger brother Ted Scamp. However the recording session in the pub at Chartham Hatch was brought to an abrupt end when it was interrupted by a police raid, and they had to return to the Gypsy encampment.

These recordings were later released on cassette, on Kennedy’s Folktracks label: excerpts from the brothers’ conversation in the Romany language appeared on FTX-441 Can You Puka Romanes? Languages of the Travellers, while Charlie’s songs were included on FTX-140 O What A Life – English gipsy singers: Sussex & Kent (in 2012 five of the seven songs recorded from Charlie were included on the CD I’m A Romany Rai, a release in Topic Records’ Voice of the People series). The notes accompanying the Folktracks release say:

Charlie Scamp and his family were camped at Chartham Hatch, near Canterbury, Kent, where they had been given the care and wood-cutting rights of a thickly wooded area. The Scamps had already attracted some public interest, as Charlie’s brother, Ted, had been featured in Rupert Croft-Cooke’s book about English Romanies “The Moon in my Pocket”. The author had, for the purpose of his book, purchased a horse drawn wagon and had travelled around the country learning the traveller’s way of life. Ted accompanied him for most of his journeying, but at some point, without any warning, he just went off and left him, to continue his travels on his own.

The recordings were made by Peter Kennedy, in the company of his aunt, Dr. Maud Karpeles, in January 1954. It was Charlie and Ted Scamp that told Peter the whereabouts of Phoebe SMITH, an outstanding gipsy singer featured on the FOLKTRACKS Documentary, 60-100 I AM A ROMANY. Although Phoebe had herself mainly travelled in the Kent area, and annually took part in the hop-picking, she had moved to Suffolk and was living with her husband, Joe, general and scrap-dealer, near Woodbridge, where she was building herself a bungalow.⁶

Maud Karpeles, who accompanied Kennedy on this “Collecting Expedition”, wrote

Our main objective was Mrs Stanley (real name Mrs Bird), Bettenham, near Cranbrook, a gipsy whom I had met on my previous expedition [in October 1953]. On our first visit she was out, but we called again on the morning of the 15th. As I suspected, she has a big repertory of songs. Unfortunately she was suffering from laryngitis. She managed to sing us a few songs, but she was unable to hold the tune and I doubt if this was entirely due to her ailment. She gave us the names of several members of her family, including her brothers, Charles Scamp at Chartham Hatch, near Canterbury, and Oliver Scamp, between Rochester and Sittingbourne, both of whom have a big repertory of songs which they learned from their parents. The Scamps are a big Romany clan scattered all over Kent and most of them seem well-to-do.

We made great friends with Charles Scamp, at present a timber dealer, and his friendship will be an open sesame amongst other Romanies in the district.  His brother Ted, the hero of a book by Croft Cooke (?), and he are interesting characters. Peter Kennedy recorded some conversation between them in ‘Romanish’.

Peter Kennedy recorded a number of songs from Charles. He has a fine voice and his style, though hardly ‘authentic’, is interesting. He has the florid gipsy way of singing, combined with a conscious voice production (self-trained, of course).  He has modelled himself on Al Johnson. He has a prodigious memory which includes songs of all kinds, but he knows a number of authentic folk songs. He has sung at the Palace Theatre, Ramsgate in a circus show.

His brother Oliver has not taken up the new songs and his style of singing is much more straightforward than that of his brother. Unfortunately he is just recovering from bronchitis, so was unable to sing much and we made only one record. He has a good voice and probably even more songs than his brother. He is willing and anxious to give us his songs and I think he would be well worth another visit in a few weeks’ time. As it is only a short distance from London, probably recording sessions on a Saturday and Sunday, with one night away, would be sufficient.⁷

Karpeles’ comments on Charlie’s singing style betray the fact that she clearly believed there was an “authentic” way of singing folk songs. When she wrote that he had modelled himself on Al Johnson this is presumably a typo for Al Jolson. It’s certainly true that, perhaps more than any other English travelling singer of whom we have recordings, Charlie Scamp sings in a pronounced “crooning” style, and it does seem likely that this was influenced by listening to popular singers – whether Al Jolson or Bing Crosby or some other star we shall probably never know.

Before singing ‘A Blacksmith Courted Me’ Charlie explained:

These songs that I am a-going to sing to you was made up before songs come about — that is for why that we like singing these songs. It was handed down from my grandfathers right down to my father and to us kiddies, and we exceptionally like ’em and I hope that everybody else do, which I think the old songs is much better than the new songs today.

In fact Kennedy’s recordings show that Charlie prefaced each song with an introduction, frequently asserting that a song was true – not just ‘The Folkestone Murder’, which is of course based on actual events, but also ‘Barbary Allen’, ‘Young Leonard’ and ‘Come, Father, Build Me a Boat’. Introducing the latter he said

These songs that I am singing to you is true. They were a hand-down — handed down from my, great grandfather to his children, right down from my father to us. And I know they are true; that is for why I am singing ’em.

With this song, he recited all the verses, in a somewhat deadpan style, before launching into the song itself – this was something that his sister Phoebe Smith also did on some recordings.

It may have been the same Charlie Scamp who was featured in the first episode of a new radio series trailed in the Sunderland Daily Echo and Shipping Gazette, 23^rd April 1958:

CHARLIE, THE LAST OF THE TINKERS

RENE CUTFORTH. whose liking for forthright investigation into the manifestations of our age has resulted in entertaining and revealing features about subjects as diverse as pubs, cheese, vintage cars, and age groups, has been out with his recorder again. This time he has been tracking down modern holders of the much-recited eight ancient offices: Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Sailor, Rich Man, Poor Man, Beggar Man and Thief.

He will introduce the recordings he obtained in eight weekly features in the Home Service. Beginning on Friday, May 9. at 8 pm., with the title ‘Tinker, Tailor…’ The producer is Maurice Brown.

Among those taking part will be Bob Roberts (sailor), who is skipper of one of the few remaining Thames sailing barges; Ceci Gee (tailor), whose name is familiar in many a shopping district; Jim Phelan (beggar man), whose years of success as author and broadcaster have not diverted him from his original calling; John Bridges (soldier), producer of ‘Saturday Night On the Light’ and a former Guards warrant officer; and Raymond Way (rich man), the well-known car dealer.

NOW RETIRED

The series begins with one of the last of the tinkers, Charles Scamp, now retired from the trade in which there is no longer a living to be gained, but still living with his wife and children in a caravan and tent at Chartham Hatch, near Canterbury, where he has been a familiar figure for years.

A trained craftsman, as were his father and grandfather, he earned his living until a few years ago mending pots and pans with tin and solder, as a true tinker should (though in Scotland and Ireland the name is also given to roadside travellers). Rene Cutforth reports that in spite of the widest search, he was unable to find one man still living entirely by the ancient trade which had its roots as far back as the Bronze Age.

The first programme was reviewed enthusiastically in the Sutton & Epsom Advertiser, 15^th May 1958:

René Cutforth started his series, “Tinker, Tailor…” with a winner, in the person of Charles Scamp, one of the few remaining men who have plied the true tinker’s trade, which could only flourish when pots and pans were real, honest-to-goodness affairs that could be tinkered.

Not that this worries Charles Scamp, who is a “traveller” (not a gipsy or Romany, he assures us) and proud of it, and one of the best propagandists you could have for the life of the caravan.

There’s not much he can’t turn his hand to, from buying an orchard to breaking up a Bentley for scrap. And can Mr. Scamp talk! René Cutforth was either very lucky or very astute in finding such a representative. If he does as well with his other characters, he will have a fine portrait gallery by the time he reaches “thief.”

One certainly wants this to have been the same Charlie Scamp whom Peter Kennedy had met a few years earlier. The strongest evidence in favour of this is that both men were camped at Chartham Hatch – although given the number of Scamps in East Kent, it’s by no means impossible that there were two Charlie Scamps camping at Chartham Hatch in the late 1950s. We have no specific evidence of the singer working as a tinker, although no doubt he turned his hand to all sorts of money making activities. Almost 20 years earlier his main occupation had been listed as “Wood Merchant”, and he was working as a timber merchant when Peter Kennedy met him in 1954. So talk of him having “recently retired” from the tinkering trade in 1958 doesn’t quite tally with what we know. But it could be that he’d only recently withdrawn completely from working as a tinker. Or simply a degree of flexibility with the facts on the part of him, the programme makers, or the journalists writing about the programme. Again, we have no specific reference to Charlie’s father Bill working as a tinker – he was listed as “General Dealer” in 1921 census, while elsewhere he is referred to as a horse-dealer.

What definitely doesn’t ring true is the radio tinker’s protestations that he is

a “traveller” (not a gipsy or Romany, he assures us) and proud of it

The Scamps were absolutely a Romany family, and in 1954 Kennedy had recorded Charlie singing and conversing in Anglo-Romani.

It appears that there were at least two other Charles Scamps living in the Canterbury area around this time. The 1939 Register – which showed Charlie and his family camped some distance away near Sissinghurst – listed a Charles Scamp (“Horse Dealer Unemployed”) living at 36 New Ruttington Lane, Canterbury, and another (“Gen Builders Labourer”) at 34 Vauxhall Avenue, Canterbury.  A few months earlier, as reported in the Kentish Express, 24^th March 1939, “Charles Scamp and Peter Burnap, Canterbury, were fined 5/- each for poaching at Littlebourne”. But the following week, 31^st March, the paper felt obliged to issue this clarification: “In fairness to Mr. Charles Scamp, cattle dealer, of 27, Military-road, Canterbury, we should like to make it clear he was not the person referred to in our report of Wingham Petty Sessions last week as having been fined 5/- for poaching. We apologise to him for any inconvenience that he may have been caused”.

A Charlie Scamp is quoted in a report in the East Kent Gazette, 22^nd March 1963, although the reference to his father and brothers serving in World War II suggest a younger man than Charlie the singer:

GIPSIES DENY COUNCIL ALLEGATIONS

The gipsy families encamped in the Sittingbourne area hotly deny the allegations made at Monday’s meeting of Sittingbourne and Milton Urban Council’s Allotments Committee that they are causing damage on  allotments through their horses and dogs wandering, also the more serious allegation of thieving.

Mr. Charlie Scamp, who has been a gipsy all his life, vehemently told an East Kent Gazette reporter. “It’s the same old story, guvnor. We get the blame for everything. It’s not us doing the thieving; we are getting blamed for those who live in houses.”

And he was backed up by Mrs. Patricia Lee, the mother of five young children, and whose husband is an ancestor of the late queen of the gipsies, Mrs Rose Lee.

“These things they say about us are just not true,” she declared “They make these accusations so that they can have some reason for wanting to move us off”

“We tether our animals and take care of them. Everybody is willing to give the gipsies a bad name just because we don’t live like other people,” she added.

‘WE HAVE FEELINGS’

The gipsies declared that they were tired of being hounded from one site to another.

“We are human beings,” said Mrs. Lee, “and I would love to settle down in a house. I would like to given the same consideration as other people. People seem to lose sight of the fact that we have feelings. We don’t take things that don’t belong to us. The people in the houses do that and we get blamed for it.”

Mr. Scamp, too, said that he would like to settle in a house. “We’ve had our name down on Faversham’s list for three or four years and are still waiting. If we can’t have a house why can’t the council find a site for say 25 or 50 trailers?

“We would be willing to pay £1 a week and keep the site tidy, and those who didn’t conform to the council regulations would be kicked off and kept moving on.

‘WON’T LOOK AT ME’

“I want to settle down in one place. I’ve tried to get a mortgage but they won’t look at me. We’ve come to the stage now where education is very important and I don’t want my children to grow up like me, unable to read and write.

“I went to school when I was six and left at 15 and I can’t read or write because in that time I must have gone to 150-200 schools—a day here, a half-day there. I couldn’t stay long at any school because we were kept moving by councils.

“I, and I think I speak for most gipsies, would like to settle down and find a steady job. Foreigners get better treated in this country than we do. My father and his brothers were good enough to fight for the country in the last war and only four of the 12 came back, surely we are entitled to some consideration” he said.

The issues raised here are entirely consistent with those mentioned in 1960s newspaper reports from the Sevenoaks area featuring the Romany Gypsy singers Minty, Levy and Jasper Smith.

Writing in 1977, Mike Yates referred to “the Kent gypsy Charlie Scamp who now lives in Faversham”⁸ and at his death in 1988 he was living at 18 Tanner Street, Faversham – coincidentally or not, the same street that his sister Phoebe had been born in. It would appear that he had lived here since at least 1963: the Sheerness Times Guardian, 3^rd May 1963 reported that “Charles Scamp, of 18 Tanner-street, Faversham, was fined £3 for carrying goods without a licence”. He was fined again two years later, according to the Faversham News, 2^nd July 1965:

Father and son, Charles and Monty Montgomery Scamp, both of 18 Tanner Street, Faversham, were charged at Faversham magistrates’ court, last Wednesday, with offences concerning a lorry they run in their business.

They pleaded guilty to using the lorry not fitted with two mirrors and with a defective tyre.

Inspector J. R. Hall, prosecuting said a police constable on motor patrol duty at Ospringe Road on April 3 stopped the lorry which was being driven by Monty Scamp, found there was only one driving mirror fitted and that one of the tyres was in poor condition, with a band of canvas showing round the whole of the circumference.

Charles Scamp, who owns the lorry, told the court that it was being driven from Ospringe into Faversham for repair when the policeman stopped his son. It was not loaded. One mirror had been broken while the lorry was working and the tyre was reasonably good and suitable for re-treading.

Both men were fined a total of £3.

The same newspaper, 21^st March 1986 carried a brief report that fire had “severely damaged a four-berth caravan parked at Bessborough Farm, Hernhill. The caravan, owned by Mr Charlie Scamp of Tanners Street, was on land to Mr D. Kay”. And a notice in the East Kent Gazette, 21^st August 1986, tells us that Charlie traded as “C. Scamp & Sons”, and was applying to renew “a licence to use Wood Yard, Bysing Wood Road, Faversham, Kent, as an operating centre for two goods vehicles”.

Charlie Scamp died at the age of 80, on 20^th February 1988, and his funeral service was held at Faversham Parish Church on 1^st March. His funeral merited a report in the Faversham Times, 3^rd March 1988:

Gipsies gather at huge funeral

Hundreds of gipsies from all over the county gathered in Faversham on Tuesday for the funeral of 80-year-old former traveller Mr. Charlie Scamp.

Mr. Scamp lived above the Three Tuns in Tanners Street until his death on Saturday.

A lengthy procession of 14 limousines, a hearse and a lorry laden with flowers brought traffic to a standstill as it slowly wended its way from Tanners Street towards the parish church.

At 2.30 the procession travelled from the church to the windy cemetery, where its parked cars took up the whole length of Love Lane. Hundreds of mourning gipsies – some from as far as London – then gathered round Mr. Scamp’s grave for the burial and sang traditional songs.

A spokesman for Faversham police said traffic was delayed for a while.

Somewhat bizarrely, on 17^th March the Faversham Times had to issue a correction:

Following our 3 March report on the funeral of Mr. Charlie Scamp, we are asked by solicitors acting for the family to make it clear that Mr. Scamp lived “not above the Three Tuns but at 18 Tanners Street, that he was not an ex traveller or gipsy and that there was not singing of traditional songs around the grave.”

The first point here may simply be a factual correction – he lived not above the Three Tuns in Tanners Street, but in the house next door. However the denial of his Gypsy roots is rather sad, hinting perhaps that his family sought to dissociate themselves from their Romany heritage, because of prejudice and the discrimination which this could bring.

Memorial notices in the Herne Bay Gazette for 22^nd February 1991, marking the anniversary of Charlie’s death, show that besides Mary (born 1933) and Monty (born 1946), he had another daughter, Jane (probably born 1944), a son, Tommy (probably born 1939), and at least eight grandchildren.

Songs

• Atching Tan Song (Roud 1732)
• Barbary Allen (Roud 54)
• A Blacksmith courted me (Roud 816)
• Come Father build me a boat (Roud 273)
• The Folkestone Murder (Roud 897)
• How old are you my pretty fair maid? (Roud 277)
• Young Leonard (Roud 189)

Discography

I’m A Romany Rai: Songs By Southern English Gypsy Traditional Singers, Topic Records, TSCD672D (2012)
https://www.topicrecords.co.uk/2012/04/im-a-romany-rai-tscd672d/

O What A Life – English gipsy singers: Sussex & Kent, Folktracks FTX-140 (cassette)

Can You Puka Romanes? Languages of the Travellers, Folktracks FTX-441 (cassette)

These Folktracks releases have not been available since Peter Kennedy’s death in 2006.

1. Quoted by Mike Yates, notes to The Yellow Handkerchief, Veteran VT136CD (2001) ↩︎
2. The rule is “Individuals’ records remain closed for 100 years from their date of birth or until proof of death”. https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/1939-register/#9-living-individuals-and-closed-records ↩︎
3. Peter Kennedy, ‘Kent Trip January 1954’ (report submitted to Marie Slocombe, BBC), https://www.peterkennedyarchive.org/1954-2/kent-1954/ ↩︎
4. [4] Folktrax archive, https://folktrax-archive.org/menus/performer_s.htm ↩︎
5. British Library Sound and Moving Image Catalogue, https://sami.bl.uk/ ↩︎
6. Folktrax archive, https://folktrax-archive.org/menus/cassprogs/140gypsies.htm ↩︎
7. Maud Karpeles, Report on Collecting Expedition in Kent January 14 – 17, 1954, copy held at the VWML. ↩︎
8. Mike Yates, review of I am a Romany (Folktrax FTX100), Traditional Music No. 6, Early 1977. ↩︎