Stephen Sedley recorded a number of songs from the Gypsy singers Joe and Lena Cooper, camped near Edenbridge, and it was they who suggested he should visit Joe Saunders; indeed, their son Bert accompanied Sedley on his first visit, to show him the way.
The Coopers were insistent that I should record their kinsman Joe Saunders [Sedley records in a footnote “I think he had one or two spare names; one was Ridley”]. Joe’s caravan, which he shared with his grown-up daughter Liza, was stationed on farmland on Biggin Hill with the agreement of a friendly farmer. I visited him there at least twice in 1965-7.
Joe was a veteran poacher (I suspect he paid rent in the form of an occasional hare or pheasant). He was also a bird-breeder. He told me that as a boy he would teach a canary to sing a linnet’s note, then use it as live bait to trap a linnet. The offspring were sterile and hence known as mule-birds, but they were superb singers. ‘You could get five pound for one at the big houses.’ It’s at least possible that he also bred fighting cocks.
Liza had a superb voice, but she preferred to sing Jim Reeves classics that she’d learnt from the radio. Joe wouldn’t sing a note without a quart of cider, but once this was provided he was unstoppable. His songs, as the tapes illustrate, were in large part the classic English rural repertoire, enhanced by Irish rebel songs (‘Kevin Barry’) and subversive army songs (‘McCafferty’). Their fit with the traditional repertoire can perhaps be best seen from the use made of them in two anthologies, The Seeds of Love (1967) and Who Killed Cock Robin? (2021, with Martin Carthy).1
Sedley – who found himself defending Gypsies in court on more than one occasion – notes that Joe Saunders “had the unusual good fortune of a year-round standing for his caravan on a friendly farmer’s land on Biggin Hill, so he was safe from harassment”.2 He believes that Joe had been in the army as a young man, and that he might have been aged around eighty at the time that he met him.3
Piecing together any kind of more detailed biographical picture of Joe Saunders has proved very difficult. The situation is complicated by the fact that Saunders does not appear to have been his real name. The singer who Mike Yates recorded in the 1970s as Joe or Joseph Jones (aka “Sharper’s Joe”) turns out to be none other than Joe Saunders, under a different name. It is not simply that those songs recorded from Saunders / Jones by both Sedley and Yates share the same tunes and words, but comparison of the recordings suggests that it’s the same singer – albeit, almost a decade on, sounding rather older. Yates appears to have recognised this: there are recordings in his collection where the performer is labelled as “Joe Jones “Sharper’s Joe” 1966.03.26 Biggin Hill, Kent”.4 Listening to these recordings, it is clear that they are identical to those made of Joe Saunders by Stephen Sedley; not only that, but the date and location tally exactly with those of Sedley’s recordings.
Sedley’s comment that Joe “had one or two spare names; one was Ridley” turns out to be the biggest clue to his ancestry. He was in fact the brother of Nelson Ridley, who was recorded at Harlow in Essex by Ewan MacColl and Peggy Seeger in 1974. Their father’s nickname was “Sharper”, hence Joe was “Sharper’s Joe”. Nelson’s son Alfred says that some of the family kept their father’s surname of Ridley, while others took their mother’s name, Jones.
Nelson Ridley provided these details of his siblings
Ingmay, he was the oldest, we lost him three years ago. Then there was Noah, then Absalom, then Joseph – my oldest brother still alive. And there was Isaac and Valentine. The girls were Mary, Ina, Fanny, Jane, Mary-Anne, Louise, Betsy and Charity.5
Census records show that in 1921 a family including Mary, Apsey (presumably a mishearing of ‘Absey’), Leonard, Nelson and Charity Jones were to be found in a Tent at Hurtwood, Shere, near Guildford in Surrey. Their father was not with them, but their mother Louisa Jones was. The Head of the household was Isaac Plowley (actually Proudley), Louisa’s father. Ten years earlier, what appears to be the same family, but giving their names as Smith, were in a Caravan at Dudley Road, Haxted, Lingfield, in Surrey. The census lists Alfred (their father), Louisa, and eight children: Elizabeth, Job, Alfred, Mary Ann, Jane Hetty, Absalom, Leonard and Noah. Joseph does not appear with them in either case – as one of the oldest in the family, he must already have struck out on his own by this time.
In the same way as Joe and Lena Cooper had pointed Stephen Sedley towards their kinsman Joe Jones, Mike Yates was directed to Sharper’s Joe by a Gypsy called Joe Cooper (whom I have assumed, perhaps incorrectly, to be the same Joe Cooper as Sedley had recorded).
The first gypsy that I met was Joe Cooper, an old man who had parked his trailer in a country lane near to where I live. I saw him one afternoon sitting bolt upright on a wooden chair which had been conveniently placed by the side of an open wood fire. Joe was cleaning a fiddle and I could hear him humming a tune to himself as he went about his work. The fiddle provided a mutual topic of conversation and, before long, we were talking like long lost friends. On the subject of songs I found Joe to be somewhat reticent. He sang me three or four, but confessed that his heart really wasn’t in the singing, explaining that he had just lost his wife and that songs had meant a great deal to her. Anyway, he said, why didn’t I go and see ” Sharper’s Joe ” who was only camped a few miles away. He would certainly oblige.
And oblige he did. I met Joe Jones within the week and discovered that his father’s name was Sharper — hence his own nickname ” Sharper’s Joe” — and that, although aged about ninety, he was only too willing to sing. In fact, once started it was almost impossible to get him to stop! On one memorable October morning I switched on a tape recorder and recorded the following songs: Van Dieman’s Land. The Box Upon Her Head. The Farmer of Chester. King William and the Keeper. Shooting Goshen’s Cock Ups. I Wish, I Wish. The Banks of Sweet Primroses. Hares in the Old Plantation. Brian O’Lynn. The Banks of Claudy. In Thorneymoor Park. Brennan on the Moor. John Barleycorn. It soon became apparent that Joe was not only a singer but an expert story teller, a non-stop riddle teller and a champion toast master as well. His favourite toast runs like this:
Lending and spending and giving away Are the three easiest things you can do in a day. But working and labouring and earning your own Are the three hardest things that man’s ever known. Here’s to the man that’s industrious. Here’s to the man that works hard for his brass And never denies his own country.6
Writing in the 1975 Folk Music Journal, which included transcriptions of three of Joe’s songs, Mike Yates wrote
Although now in his nineties, Mr Jones has a good memory. In his youth he was a poaching companion of the late George “Pop” Maynard of Copthorne7
George Maynard was a well-known singer from Sussex, recorded in the 1950s and early 60s by Peter Kennedy and Ken Stubbs8. There are at least two songs – ‘Shooting Goshen’s Cock-Ups’ and ‘William Taylor’ (‘You Subjects of England’), both poaching songs – which were found in the repertoire of both Pop Maynard and Joe Jones.
Yates’ recordings of Sharper’s Joe were made between 1973 and May 1975. It’s worth noting that, if he really was in his nineties when these recordings were made, he was still in remarkably fine voice.
Included in the 1975 FMJ article was a full list of the songs that Yates had now recorded from Joe. Several of these recordings subsequently appeared on the Musical Traditions CD, Here’s Luck to a Man… released in 2003. In the CD booklet Yates wrote
Joe Jones, or ‘Sharper’s Joe’ – after his father, Sharper Jones – (or even ‘Joe Cooper’ as I heard him addressed on one occasion) and his wife Lena were living in an old caravan on a site at St Mary Cray, Kent. Whenever I called, Joe would be squatting over an outdoor fire, no matter whatever the weather, and all of my recordings were made outdoors. On one occasion, when we were constantly being interrupted by children, we retreated to the edge of a nearby wood. As I set up my mike stand I felt something tapping my shoe. Simultaneously Joe began to frantically point and shout and it was only when I looked down that I noticed that I had stepped backwards onto a rather sleepy adder. Luckily the fangs failed to cut through the shoe and no damage was done.9
This paints a vivid picture. But it creates yet more confusion for anyone trying to unpick the details of these Gypsy singers. While Mike Yates talks about Joe living with his wife, Lena, Stephen Sedley makes no mention of Joe’s wife, saying only that he lived with his daughter Liza. Meanwhile the recordings on Here’s Luck to a Man… ascribed to ‘Lena Jones’ are definitely those made by Sedley in the 1960s of Lena Cooper, while the version of ‘Ripest Apples’ on the CD is not, as the track listing would have you believe, sung by Joe Jones, but by Lena’s husband Joe Cooper (again, recorded by Sedley in 1966).
Songs
“He had a large repertoire. He wouldn’t sing a note until he had a quart of cider, but once started he couldn’t be stopped”.10
Joe Saunders, recorded by Stephen Sedley:
As I was bound apprentice (Roud 299)
The Barley Straw (Roud 19112)
Bold Reynolds (Roud 190 / 358)
Botany Bay (Roud 261 / 519)
Captain Grant (Roud 1286)
The Cuckoo (Roud 413)
The Cuckoo’s Nest (Roud 1506)
Down by some riverside (Roud 564)
The Farmer of Chester (Roud 2638)
The Game of Cards (Roud 232)
Gather round (Roud 23635)
Hares in the old plantation (Roud 363)
Hartlake Bridge (Roud 1729)
I Wish I Wish (Roud 495)
King and the Keeper, The (Roud 853)
Love it is pleasing (Roud 1049)
My single sailor (Roud 264)
Oyster Girl (Roud 875)
The Pear Tree (Roud 1713)
Ripest Apples (Roud 146 / 542)
Squire Poppa’s Park (Botany Bay) (Roud 519)
Ten Penny Walnuts (Roud 2520)
Transportation Song (Roud 519)
When this wicked war is over (Roud 3446)
Yonder Comes The Devil (Roud 16319)
Joe Jones, recorded by Mike Yates:
The Banks of Claudy (Roud 266)
The Banks of Sweet Primroses (Roud 586)
The Barley Straw (Roud 19112)
A Blacksmith Courted Me (Roud 816)
Bold Reynolds (Roud 190 / 358)
Botany Bay (Roud 261)
Box upon her head (Roud 289)
The Brake of Brambles (Roud 47479)
Brennan on the Moor (Roud 476)
Brian O’Lynn (Roud 294)
Captain Grant (Roud 1286)
The Cuckoo (Roud 413)
Cuckoo’s Nest (Roud 1506)
The Farmer of Chester (Roud 2638)
The Game of Cards (Roud 232)
Hares In the old Plantation (Roud 363)
Hartlake Bridge (Roud 1729)
I called for a pot of ale (Roud 47478)
I Wish I Wish (Roud 495)
John Barleycorn (Roud 164)
The King and the Keeper (Roud 853)
Little dun mare (Roud 176)
Love is pleasing (Roud 1049)
On board a Man o’ War (Roud 662)
The Pear Tree (Roud 1713)
Seventeen come Sunday (Roud 277)
Susie Simmonds (Squire Poppa’s Park, Transportation Song, Van Dieman’s Land) (Roud 519)
Thornymoor Park (Roud 222)
Yonder Comes The Devil (Roud 16319)
You rambled up the street, I rambled down (Roud 25885?)
Toast: The Little Bees
Toast: Lending and spending and giving away
Riddle: Upright and down straight
Discography
Mike Yates’ recordings of Joe Jones are included on the following releases:
Here’s Luck to a Man: An Anthology of Gypsy Songs & Music from South-East England, Musical Traditions MTCD320 (CD-R, 2003).
Stephen Sedley, Joe and Lena Cooper, Joe and Liza Saunders: A note to accompany tape recordings of Travellers’ songs made in 1966 at Edenbridge, personal communication, August 2023. ↩︎
Stephen Sedley, email correspondence, 12 March 2025 ↩︎
Stephen Sedley, email correspondence, 11 and 12 March 2025 ↩︎
Mike Yates collection C 796/12-16, listed in the VWML catalogue, https://catalogue.efdss.org/cgi-bin/koha/opac-detail.pl?biblionumber=72230. The British Library catalogue record (C796/15 S1 C1-13) contains the following Performance Notes: “Thirteen songs performed by Kentish Traveller singer Joe Jones, nicknamed ‘Sharper’s Joe’. Occasionally joined by another singer. Performer’s name noted down as ‘Joe Saunders’ in documentation”. ↩︎
Ewan MacColl and Peggy Seeger, Travellers’ Songs From England and Scotland, Routledge & Kegan Paul, 1977; reissued as Musical Traditions Records MTCD254 (CD-ROM, 2015) ↩︎
Mike Yates, Some Gypsy Singers in South East England, English Dance & Song, Spring 1975, p14 ↩︎
Mike Yates, English Gypsy Songs, Folk Music Journal, Vol 3 No 1 (1975), p79 ↩︎
Stephen Sedley, then a young barrister, recorded Joe and Lena Cooper at Edenbridge in March and April 1966, having successfully defended their son Abraham in a court case.
The privilege this earned me was a welcome in any caravan in the Edenbridge area. Abe introduced me to his parents, Joe and Lena Cooper, who readily talked and sang for me as I ran the Uher.
Lena, a Romany from the Lee clan, had danced and sung with her brother on the Dartford stage as a child. Joe, from an urban background, had volunteered in 1914, had been gassed twice but had survived, only to find that Lloyd George’s ‘homes for heroes’ didn’t exist. He went on the road. From him I recorded a version of the trench song ‘When this lousy war is over’ which I used in a centennial presentation of WWI songs1 because Joe’s version began: “When this wicked war is over …”. He described mustard gas rolling knee-high as resembling morning mist in the hopfields.2
This record in the 1939 Register must surely be the family in question, their location being “Caravan in field Off Butts Lane, Sutton, Epsom and Ewell M.B., Surrey”.
First name
Last name
Birth date
Occupation
Marital status
Joe (Joseph)
Cooper
24 May 1896
Travelling Farm Worker
Married
Lena
Cooper
NK 1899
Hawker Unpaid Domestic Duties
Married
Abraham
Cooper
? Aug 1921
Travelling Farm Worker
Single
Lena’s birth year as written on the Register return is unclear. It could be 1879, but is more likely to be 1899 – and even this may not actually be accurate.
Earlier census and BMD records for Joe and Lena are patchy, and decidedly speculative.
Joseph Cooper, 1896–?
As shown above, the 1939 Register states that Joe was born on 24th May 1896. Possibly he was the same Joseph Cooper whose birth was registered in the Bromley District, in the second quarter of 1897, his mother’s maiden name given as Dekins.
Again this is speculative, but he could be the Joe / Joseph Cooper in the following census returns; we should probably not take too much notice of the variations in year and place of birth.
When recorded in 1966 by Stephen Sedley, Joe said that he had run away from home in Walton-on-Thames to join the army when he was 17, claiming to be 23. Based on a birth date of May 1896, that would place his enlistment as 1913-14, before the outbreak of the Great War.
I was not big enough to go into a public house to get a pint of beer with my mum and dad […] That was before the 1914 war. I see some soldiers come by, in these coats and things of London, I thought to myself I’d be happy if I was in that. And I did like the army. I promise you I did like it. I run away from home. From Walton-on-Thames, out against Kingston, and I went over to Weybridge in Surrey and I joined the Army there. Told them I was 23 years of age, but I was nowhere near it. I was only 17, and I told him I was 23 years of age. Asked me my mother’s name. Asked me my father’s name, I told him I did not remember, I did not know ‘em. I was fetched up with some people, I said I run and I left ‘em, because I was working too hard, but it was all the lies in the world to get in the army. And I done that.
Joe’s parents tried to get him out of the army, he said, but to no avail. He was sent to Kingston-on-Thames to have a health test, and thence to Woolwich Arsenal for his army training. There are army service records for a Joseph Cooper which in many respects tally with his reminiscences, but which also throw up inconsistencies. Records – sadly undated – show that his medical examination took place at Kingston, that his trade or occupation was “Dealer”, his birthplace was Mitcham in Surrey, and his stated age was 23. He was 5 feet 5½ inches tall, weighed 122 pounds, and his physical development was good.
Joe recalled that he had three weeks’ training at Woolwich, and then “I was over in France in three weeks”. This suggests that when he enlisted it was not so very long before the outbreak of hostilities – the first contingent of the British Expeditionary Force being sent to France on 15th August 1914. However it must have been before his eighteenth birthday on 24th May 1914; once eighteen he would not have had to lie about his age to be allowed to enlist.
When asked how long he’d been in the trenches, Joe replied “1914 to the end of the war. Yes, right the way through it”. The army records do not cast any light on his early years of service. In fact Joseph Cooper’s army service was recorded as having officially begun on 17th May 1916, and his Enrolment Paper, although undated, references the Military Service Act, 1916 (this was the legislation, introduced in January 1916, which brought in conscription from 2nd March that year). The Enrolment Paper gives Joe’s age as nineteen (which appears to be his true age on this occasion), and his address as Wickes Encampment, Shepperton; again, his occupation is given as “Dealer”. The paper is signed with an X (“his mark”) suggesting that Joe was illiterate – and Stephen Sedley confirms this. His next of kin is stated as his father, William Cooper, also residing at Wickes Encampment. If this is correct, and his father’s name was William rather than Joseph, then clearly it’s a different Joe Cooper to the one shown in the census records reproduced above. But one wonders if Joe was deliberately providing misleading information to the army; it has not been possible to trace a plausible William Cooper in census records, living with his son Joseph, and with an entry in the ‘Occupation’ field which suggests that the person is a gypsy.
Joe told Stephen Sedley that he served as an infantryman, and that he had been at the Somme, and at “the first battle of Cambia” (presumably Cambrai). The first significant use of tanks in battle was at Cambrai, and Joe talked about this, recalling that initially the tanks had been assigned to the Machine Gun Corps, before the formation of the Tank Corps (which later became the Royal Tank Regiment).
Army records show Joseph Cooper being called up and assigned to the Royal Fusiliers on 17th May 1916, transferring to the British Expeditionary Force on 30th August, and embarking for France on 1st September 1916. Initially he joined the 39th Infantry Base Depot (IBDs were holding camps located within easy reach of a Channel port, which received men on arrival from England and kept them in training while they awaited posting to a unit at the front), was then being enrolled in the 27th (Reserve) Battalion, Royal Fusiliers, before transferring to the 11th Battalion, Royal West Kent Regiment on 14th September 1916. He was transferred again on 25th December 1916 to the Heavy Branch of the Machine Gun Corps, and subsequently to the Tank Corps (formed in July 1917). He was demobilised on 14th December 1919.
He may have liked the soldier’s life, but that did not stop him being put on a charge on several occasions – for overstaying a period of leave, for being absent from parade, for “loitering during working hours” and “using threatening language to R.P. [Regimental Police] in execution of their duty”.
Joe Cooper’s reminiscences of life in the trenches were vivid, and entirely unsentimental. He talked of the difficulty of sleeping in a dugout, and of having to be constantly vigilant for snipers:
Now if you see them trees are moving about as green in the summertime, like, moving about… if you could see that tree move you’d know there was a sniper in there. Well you’d report that then. To the machine gun man. Well, the machine gun comes up number one, and he puts a Stokes [?] mortar in there… Well he blows him out of the tree altogether… If we didn’t shoot him, he’d shoot us.
He told of how gas would roll across the fields:
Now just say you been down the hop country, you seen a foggy morning haven’t you? You’ll see the fog off the ground somewhere about a foot to a foot and a half, that’s like the gas used to come up off the trenches, out on the battlefield.
How the British soldiers were initially unprotected against German gas attacks:
When they start using the gas in there, you had no gas helmets, nothing like that. We had to get our own water, our own water, you know, put it into a medicine bottle, soak it into the bottle. And when we seed the gas a-coming up, the gas alarm come through the trenches, ringing a bit of a bell… We had to put that water all in our own mouth. Only our own water mind. Over your nose and over the top…
And that, when they were provided with gas masks, at first these proved unsatisfactory.
When troops were ordered to go over the top
That was from two in the morning, from half past one or two o’clock. The officer used to come round with the orderly officer, with the rum issue, and he used to give him a tot of rum into a glass and we’d drink it. Well that used to put the nerve into you. If you understand what I mean now. Well, when they said boys “Stand to, ready to go”, you couldn’t hear a shell fire, you couldn’t hear a rifle fire or nothing. Not till the big guns started to the back of us, our own guns.
Then
if someone was hit on the battlefield, if he was my own brother I wouldn’t dare touch him. Wouldn’t dare to touch him if his arm was blowed off or his head was blowed off. Wouldn’t dare to touch him… Just take care of yourself. If you did you was entitled to a court martial, if you got catched at it. If they catch you doing it – ’cause we did do it, because we was doing it for the sake of your partner, if you could.
To recover the wounded from No Man’s Land they would use stretchers on wheels, attached to a rope, at night, so as not to be seen. Then they would attend to the wounded as best they could, and take them down the supply trench back to the second line of defence.
Joe spoke dispassionately about the enemy, recognising that “Some was pretty good, some was bad, ’cause we had to do it the same as they did… They tried to blow us up and we tried to blow them up”. But he was far from oblivious to the desperate conditions in which men found themselves:
I should think it was about from three to four weeks when we did get in the real, proper slaughter. We had no dugouts. We had no trenches. We had dug up just a little trench, and told to dig out as well we could from shell hole to shell hole to shell hole, and dig ourself in. But after we’d done that, it was real proper murder, they served us so that you could almost see the blessed angels come down from the sky to stop the war. With my own two loving eyes. And that’s the God’s honest truth, as ever was in heaven.
And when, finally, the armistice came, the men were all infested with lice:
What they call these lice, real proper lice. You’ve heard talk of lice, haven’t you? Well in the front line trenches we got smothered with them things. Even come out the lace holes of our boots, or our shirts. Clothes we had on, they was not fit to wear. We had to take ‘em off and destroy ‘em outside… We did burn them up and put all new clothes on.
Then after the war, as Stephen Sedley recounts, he came home to find that, contrary to Lloyd George’s assurances, there were no “homes fit for heroes”, and he took to (went back to?) a life on the road.
As yet, no record of Joe Cooper’s death has been located.
Lena Cooper, née Lee, 1899(?)/1904(?)–1968?
While the 1939 Register appears to show Lena’s birth year as 1899, other records suggest that she was born in 1904. The birth of a Lena Lee was registered in the Maidstone District in the second quarter of 1904, and this tallies with census records – for instance with the Lee family recorded in the 1911 census at Iron Mill Lane, Crayford:
1911 – Iron Mill Lane, Crayford, Kent
First name
Last name
Relationship to head
Age
Approx. Birth year
Occupation
Birth place
Leonard
Lee
Husband
50
1861
Clothes peg maker, Hawker
Swancombe, Kent
Ellen
Lee
Wife
46
1865
Clothes peg seller, Hawker
Heathfield, Sussex
Louisa
Lee
Daughter
25
1886
Clothes peg seller, Hawker
Hollenton, Sussex
Sarah
Lee
Daughter
23
1888
Clothes peg seller, Hawker, Hawker
Hollenton, Sussex
Walter
Lee
Son
14
1897
Clothes peg maker
Kent, Chatham
Celia
Lee
Daughter
10
1901
School
Kent, Folkestone
Lena
Lee
Daughter
7
1904
School
Kent, Marden
Tilly
Lee
Daughter
4
1907
–
Kent, Swanley
And at Belvedere ten years later:
1921 – Occupation Road, Belvedere, Erith, Kent
First name
Last name
Relationship to head
Approx. Birth year
Age
Occupation
Employer
Birth place
Leonard
Lee
Head
1863
58
Street Hawker
Own Account
Not known
Ellen
Lee
Wife
1866
55
Street Hawker
Own Account
Not known
Lena
Lee
Daughter
1903
18
Street Hawker
Own Account
Epping, Essex
Tilly
Lee
Daughter
1906
15
Home Duties
Epping, Essex
(Clearly this is the same family, although there are inconsistencies between 1911 and 1921 with the girls’ ages and place of birth).
If this is the right Lena Lee, then she only had one brother, Walter, so it must have been with him that she danced and sung on the Dartford stage as a child – although when recounting how she and her brother used to dance, she seems to refer to him as Billy.
As well as singing songs, Lena diddled several dance tunes. She recalled that she would perform on the Dartford stage at 11 or 12 o’clock at night. She had a brother who used to play the tambourine and the mouth organ while she danced – “shuffle on, cakewalk, and step dance – any step tune you could play, he’d do it”. When she was twelve years of age they had been performing in the street when they came to the notice of a gentleman who, having followed them for a while, bought them both a cup of tea, gave them a golden sovereign, and subsequently on a Sunday visited their home to speak to their mother, arranging for a car to come and pick them up at 6 o’clock that day – presumably so that they could perform at a local theatre.
Lena said that her paternal grandfather “was a bit of a Spain man” and “my father, you would take him to be, if he was alive… he would look if he was a Spain man. There was a bit of a mix-up in the blood, you see, but he is a bit of a Spain man, my father is”. When asked, did she mean that he was from Spain, Lena answered “Yes, from Rome”.
It is not known when Lena and Joe met and married. In the 1939 Register, their son Abraham’s date of birth was given as August 1921. If that date is correct, then it casts doubt on the relevance of the other census records quoted here, since both Joe Cooper and Lena Lee appear to have been single, and living with their parents at the time of the 1921 census, taken just two months earlier.
The death of a Lena Cooper – probably the same person – was recorded in the Tonbridge district, in the second quarter of 1968.
Stephen Sedley also made recordings of Joe and Lena’s son Bert. These recordings were made when Sedley was driving to meet the Coopers’ kinsman Joe Saunders on Biggin Hill for the first time. Bert, in the passenger seat, was excited by the tape recorder, and Sedley recorded a few songs from him, although these are mostly fragmentary. They include ‘Mammy’, most closely associated with Al Jolson, and ‘Young At Heart’, first recorded in the 1950s by Frank Sinatra.
Mike Yates and Joe Cooper
Writing in English Dance and Song in 1975, Mike Yates recorded that
The first gypsy that I met was Joe Cooper, an old man who had parked his trailer in a country lane near to where I live. I saw him one afternoon sitting bolt upright on a wooden chair which had been conveniently placed by the side of an open wood fire. Joe was cleaning a fiddle and I could hear him humming a tune to himself as he went about his work. The fiddle provided a mutual topic of conversation and, before long, we were talking like long lost friends. On the subject of songs I found Joe to be somewhat reticent. He sang me three or four, but confessed that his heart really wasn’t in the singing, explaining that he had just lost his wife and that songs had meant a great deal to her. Anyway, he said, why didn’t I go and see “Sharper’s Joe” who was only camped a few miles away.3
Mike Yates does not specifically say that he recorded the few songs which Joe Cooper sang for him, and there do not appear to be any recordings of him among the Yates recordings deposited with the British Library and Vaughan Williams Memorial Library. However the same article in English Dance and Song included a transcription of ‘Ripest Apples’, collected from Joe Cooper in January 1970. This is similar, but not identical, to the version of the song which Stephen Sedley had recorded. Cooper is a common Gypsy surname, so we can’t be sure if the Joe Cooper that Mike Yates met is the same man as Stephen Sedley recorded in 1966. On the other hand, the fact that this singer had recently lost his wife would tally with Lena having died eighteen months or so previously.
The Musical Traditions CD Here’s Luck to a Man… An Anthology of Gypsy Songs & Music from South-East England (MTCD320, 2003), featuring recordings made by Mike Yates, includes one song and a toast credited to “Lena Jones”, but careful listening suggests that these are in fact Stepehen Sedley’s recordings of Lena Cooper. Likewise the version of ‘Ripest Apples’ on that album is Sedley’s 1966 recording, rather than one made by Mike Yates.
Songs
Recorded by Stephen Sedley, 26th March and 19th April 1966:
Joe Cooper
Gather Round (Roud 23635)
Love it is pleasing (Roud 1049)
My single sailor (Roud 264)
Ripest Apples (Roud 542)
When this wicked war is over (Roud 3446)
Collected by Mike Yates, January 1970:
Ripest Apples (Roud 542)
Lena Cooper
Recorded by Stephen Sedley, 26th March and 19th April 1966:
Barbara Allen (Roud 54)
Died for love (Roud 60)
Don’t think by my clothes (Roud 7337)
Down by the riverside (Roud 564)
Forgive and forget (Roud 21545)
Gypsy girl (Roud 7337)
How much is that doggie in the window? (Roud 23633)
I owe my landlord three weeks’ rent (Roud 1455)
If I was a blackbird (Roud 387)
I’m mother’s baby boy (Roud 23639)
I’m the bloke you don’t meet every day (Roud 975)
In the shade of the old apple tree (Roud 10242)
Just an old fashioned lady (Roud 23644)
Just like the ivy (Roud 16228)
Knees up Mother Brown (Roud 23634)
Love it is pleasing (Roud 1049)
Meet me by moonlight (Roud 767)
The old brass ring (Roud 23643)
Only a beautiful picture in a lovely golden frame (Roud 13625)
Only a leaf (Roud 23645)
Pleasant Dreams (Roud 23637)
A pub with no beer (Roud 23631)
There was an old farmer in Chester (Roud 2638)
There was an old tailor in London (Roud 311)
Waiting for the Robert E Lee (Roud 23632)
When this wicked war is over (Roud 3446)
Wild colonial boy (Roud 677)
Young sailor cut down in his prime (Roud 2)
Toast: Here’s good luck to a man (Roud 23648)
Bert Cooper
Stephen Sedley also made recordings of Joe and Lena’s son Bert. These recordings were made when Sedley was driving to meet Joe Saunders on Biggin Hill for the first time. Bert, in the passenger seat, was excited by the tape recorder, and Sedley recorded a few songs from him, although these are mostly fragmentary.
Mammy
Who’s going to kiss your pretty little foot
The Wild Colonial Boy (Roud 677)
Young At Heart
The bells of hell, initially compiled as the keynote lecture for the Oxford history faculty centenary conference 2014, and last performed at Cecil Sharp House on 11 November 2018 (recording archived in the Vaughan Williams Memorial Library). ↩︎
Stephen Sedley, Joe and Lena Cooper, Joe and Liza Saunders: A note to accompany tape recordingsof Travellers’ songs made in 1966 at Edenbridge, personal communication, August 2023. ↩︎
Mike Yates, Some Gypsy Singers in South East England, English Dance & Song 37:1 (1975) pp.14-15 ↩︎
Ted Haynes was born on 3rd February 1925. He was the eldest son of Mary Ann Hynes, née Millis, and her husband Ted, a basket maker. Both were Romany Gypsies.
At the time of the September 1939 Register fourteen-year-old Ted was with his mother, three sisters and one brother in hop-pickers’ huts at “Spelmonden Farm, Hazel Street”, in the Tonbridge Rural District – probably Hazel Street Farm, Spelmonden Road, Horsmonden. While his younger siblings were “At School” or “Under School Age”, Ted’s occupation was given as “Seeking Work, Not Previously Employed”.
David Stacey met and befriended Ted Haynes at the White Hart at Claygate in the early 1970s. Stacey writes
A regular visitor was Ted Haynes, who had many songs and who listened to, and was clearly interested in, the songs I contributed. Ted was a big man and he kept his eye on me, even warning me one evening to stay by his side because there was a fight brewing. Luckily the battle, a grudge match, didn’t boil over that night although, a week or two later when I wasn’t in the pub, all hell broke loose and someone was thrown bodily through the pub’s plate glass window!1
Recognising Stacey’s interest in the old songs, Ted introduced him to his mother, who was subsequently recorded by Mike Yates. In connection with first meeting Mary Ann, Yates wrote
I had been told that her son, Ted, was a singer and I drove down to Sussex one Sunday afternoon, looking for his trailer. Eventually, I found Ted and his trailer in a field. He was busy and directed me to his mother, who ‘knew all the old songs’. Mary lived in High Street, Brighton, where, according to Ted, she was known to ‘everybody’.2
Yates recorded a few songs from Ted, mostly singing with his mother.
Songs
Forgive and forget (Roud 21545)
I’ll forgive but I’ll never forget (Roud 5209)
If those guns could only sleep (Roud 31008)
Mother I love you (Roud 29905)
Outside an hotel (You may be the same someday) (Roud 27622)
Your mother was the only girl I loved (Roud 31006)
Mike Yates, booklet notes for Here’s Luck to a Man… An Anthology of Gypsy Songs & Music from South-East England, Musical Traditions, MTCD320, 2003, https://mustrad.co.uk/articles/luck.htm#sing↩︎
Given that she was born in Portsmouth and spent much of her life in Brighton, it would be extremely bold to claim Mary Ann Haynes as a Kentish singer. However she came to Kent regularly for seasonal agricultural work, and deserves a mention on this website as singer of a particularly fine version of the song ‘Hopping down in Kent’.
Mike Yates recorded three dozen songs from Mary Ann Haynes in the 1970s. In the notes for the Musical Traditions CD Here’s Luck to a Man… he wrote:
One of the first Gypsy singers that I met was Mary Ann Haynes. I had been told that her son, Ted, was a singer and I drove down to Sussex one Sunday afternoon, looking for his trailer. Eventually, I found Ted and his trailer in a field. He was busy and directed me to his mother, who ‘knew all the old songs’. Mary lived in High Street, Brighton, where, according to Ted, she was known to ‘everybody’. High Street turned out to be a narrow street off the sea-front and was full of large tower blocks. I started knocking on doors, only to be told that nobody knew a Mrs Haynes. I found that when I mentioned that she was a Gypsy doors were closed very quickly in my face. I began to wonder if I would ever find Mary, and was about to give up, when a lady said that there were no Gypsies in the area, only ‘an Italian looking lady’. This was, of course, Mary. When I arrived she was sleeping off a lunchtime session in the pub, but, once roused, she set about making a cup of tea and, having said that I knew her son (sort of), she began to sing as soon as I mentioned songs. Mary had been born in 1905, in a Faversham waggon parked behind The Coach and Horses in Portsmouth, Hampshire. Her father, Richard Milest, was a horse-dealer whose family would accompany him across England during the summer as he made his way from fair to fair. “We used to go to the Vinegar & Pepper Fair at Bristol, then to Chichester, Lewes, Canterbury and Oxford, then up to Appleby and back down to Yalding.” Mary’s husband died suddenly, leaving her with a large family, and, having settled in Brighton, she worked as a flower-seller, earning enough to support her family. 1
I was unable to find any trace in official records of her father under the name Richard Milest (or Millest, which seems to be the more usual spelling of the surname). However evidence suggests that the family’s name was in fact Millis, and he was probably the Richard Millis whose birth was recorded in the Battle district of Sussex in 1863, and who, at the time of the 1881 census, was residing at 25 St Mary Magdalene Street in Brighton. 19 years old at the time, Richard was working as a Bricklayer’s labourer. His father Henry was listed as a Horsedealer.
Janet Keet-Black, co-founder of the Romany and Traveller Family History Society, confirms that Mary Ann’s maiden name was Millis in a 2025 interview with Will Duke:
Janet: Brighton used to get a lot of Travellers stopping, for short term, short times, around, up on the downland around Brighton, and they, some of them, would become settled, but still retain their ‘Gypsyness’, if you like. And one of those families were the Millis family. They had wagons, in the 1900s, worked with horses, hawked, whatever, did farm work. And you could find them at Falmer, up on the Downs at Woodingdean, all over. They’re still very much in Brighton, the Millis family.
Will: Millis, M I …
Janet: It’s M, I, double L, I, S: Millis, or it also became Mellish, M, E, double L, I, S, H, same family, Millises, Mellishes. One of the most famous Millises was Mary Anne Haynes.
Will: Right. Okay, yeah.
Janet: Her dad was a Millis.
Will: She was a great singer, when she wasn’t working, yes …
Janet: … when she wasn’t working. She was born down in Southampton, I think … Portsmouth, behind a pub in Portsmouth, but she died in Brighton. She became a flower seller. Yeah, her dad was a Millis, Mellish. I think he turned out, I think he ended up as a Mellish.
Will: And she married a Haynes.
Janet: She married somebody called Ted Haynes, who was a basket maker. But the interesting thing with Mary Anne is that, I think it was her grandmother who was a Willet, Elizabeth Willet …
Will: tell us more …
Janet: which made Mary Ann Haynes’s father, first cousin to Tom Willet, which sort of makes sense, if you think about it … 2
Mary Ann married Ted Haynes, also from Brighton, in the second quarter of 1922, and their first child; also Edward, was born in February 1925. At the time of the 1939 Register, taken in September of that year, it is no surprise that she was to be found in Kent, hop-picking. Specifically, she was at “Spelmonden Farm, Hazel Street” – this was probably Hazel Street Farm, Spelmonden Road, Horsmonden. Her occupation was given as “Hawker. Gen Dealer”, and her date of birth as 9th April 1904 (when her death was recorded in 1977, her birthday was also shown as 9th April, but the year as 1905). With her in the hop-pickers’ huts were her fourteen-year old son Edward (Ted), and four other children: Alice Mary, Kathleen, Elizabeth (Betty) and one-year-old John.
The birth records for Alice (registered in the Reigate district, 1931), and her sister Elizabeth (registered in Brighton, 1936), both give the mother’s maiden name as Millis. It was presumably Alice who accompanied her mother to prison in October 1932, as reported widely in newspapers including the Daily News and Daily Mirror. The Belfast Telegraph for Saturday, 22nd October 1932 reported as follows:
BABY TO GO TO PRISON.
MOTHER’S BEQUEST GRANTED.
When Mrs. Mary Ann Haynes, a 26-year-old gipsy woman, was sentenced to a month’s hard labour at Brighton Police Court yesterday for being drunk in charge of a horse and cart and obstructing a policeman, she exclaimed: “Please let my baby go with me.”
The magistrates, after conferring together, agreed, and Mrs. Haynes, smiling happily, said: “Oh, thank you very much”.
A later court report gives Mary Ann’s address as 37 Edward Street, Brighton:
HURSTPIERPOINT
For depositing rubbish in the Brighton-rd. a short distance from Muddleswood cross-roads on February 7, Mrs. Mary Ann Haynes, of 37, Edward-s. Brighton, was fined 10s. at Haywards Heath Magistrates’ Court.3
Edward Street is literally just around the corner from High Street, Brighton, where Mike Yates would find her in the 1970s.
David Stacey, who in between archaeological digs spent a good deal of time apple-picking and hop-picking in Kent in the 1960s and 1970s, met Mary Ann’s son Ted Haynes – himself a singer – in The White Hart at Claygate.
Towards the end of the season Ted, after a particularly good session, said “You like the old songs, boy, don’t yer – you ought to meet my mother, she’s a bit of a rough’un but she can sing” and he handed me his card.
Although my girl partner of the time and I were due to move to warmer climes before the winter set in I persuaded her that we should make the effort to find, and if possible, to record Ted’s mother, as I would like to learn some of the songs I felt sure she knew. We had little money to spare on such a venture and no recording equipment of any sort but we set off across southern Britain, finishing up in Brighton where Ted’s mother, Mary, lived.
Travellers, justifiably, keep themselves to themselves and, although I had Ted’s invitation to meet his mother, there were many delays before I was given the name of a pub where I would find Mary and other members of her family. Meanwhile there were two mouths to feed and the chills of winter were setting in. Approaches to the folk clubs of Brighton for any sort of assistance were generally greeted with scorn although students who ran a club at the University of Sussex did find us an empty room in a dorm and another club allowed us to hold a raffle. By then, if we had delayed our departure any longer we would have been too broke to travel. We had to leave, but the meeting with Mary Haynes had confirmed that she had a wealth of songs. I knew she should be recorded and searched desperately for somebody who could get her repertoire on tape. Eventually I gave her contact details to Dave Bland, at that time doing some field recordings for Bill Leader. In the end David passed her details on to Mike Yates who eventually did record Mary and went on to describe her as “one of the most outstanding folksinging discoveries to be made in recent years” (Green Grow the Laurels Topic 12TS285).4
Mary Ann Haynes died on the 10th November 1977, and was buried in Brighton and Preston Cemetery.5
For a full list of songs collected from Mary Ann Haynes, search the Roud Index.
Writing in 1975, Mike Yates provided this list of songs which he had recorded from Mary Ann Haynes:
All For the Grog
All Through Mi Rakli
American Stranger, The
At the Atchin
Tan Barbara Allen (Child 84)
Bold Drunkard
The Bold Robert Emmet
Bonny Black Bess (Laws L9)
Botany Bay (Laws L16A)
Coachman’s Whip, The
Colour of Amber, The
Erin’s Lovely Home (Laws M6)
Farmer of Chester, The (Laws L2)
Farmer’s Boy, The (Laws Q30)
Father Build me a Boat (Laws MI)
Female Drummer, The
Floating on the Tide (The Lilly White Hand)( Laws P18)
Folkestone Murder,
The Game of Cards, The
Give me Back the One I Love
Green Bushes, The (Laws P2)
Green Grow the Laurels
Hares in the Old Plantation
Hopping Down in Kent
I Am a Rakish Young Fellow
I’m A Girl that’s Done Wrong to my Parents
I’m a Romany Rye
If I Were a Blackbird
In Thorneymoor Fields
Jim the Carter’s Boy
Little Ball of Yarn, The
Little Dun Dee Long A-Growing (Laws 035)
Lord Bateman (Child 53)
Lovely Johnny
McCafferty
Master and Man
Mossy Green Banks of the Lea (Laws 015)
My Lovely Hops
“New” Deserter, The
Old Gypsy’s Waggon, The
Old Plaid Shawl, The
Old Miser, The
Old Rugged Cross, The
Outlandish Knight, The (Child 4)
Oyster Girl, The (Laws Q13)
Poor Leonard (Laws Q33)
Poor Old Horse Rambling Sailor, The
Riding Down to Portsmouth
Seventeen on Sunday (Laws 017)
Shamrock Shore, The
Sheepfold, The (Laws 010)
Shooting Goshen’s Cock-Ups
Song of the Thrush, The
Tanyard Side, The (Laws M28)
Those Cruel Slavery Days
Twenty-One Years (Laws E16)
Unfortunate Rake, The (Laws Q26)
Wexford Murder, The (Laws P35)
Yellow Handkerchief, The
Yates noted
Not all the above songs were known as complete versions. Furthermore, the list is, by choice, selective. I have recorded some music hall songs from Mrs Haynes, and these are shown above, but I have not listed the large number of 20th century pop songs which she also knows.6
Discography
Recordings of Mary Ann Haynes appear on the following albums:
Many thanks to Mike Yates for permission to reproduce the photographs on this page.
Mike Yates, booklet notes for Here’s Luck to a Man… An Anthology of Gypsy Songs & Music from South-East England, Musical Traditions, MTCD320, 2003, https://mustrad.co.uk/articles/luck.htm#sing↩︎
Joe Smith was the husband of renowned singer Phoebe Smith. He sang, and played fiddle and melodeon.
The 1939 Register gives his date of birth as 4th February 1905. When he married Phoebe in October 1930 his father was shown as Manuel (presumably short for Emmanuel) Smith, Labourer, Deceased. Possibly this was the Manuel Smith who, as a six-year-old, was found by census enumerators residing with his parents and four brothers at Hintons Cottages, Barnes, in Surrey. The older members of the family were all listed as “Travellers (Hawkers)”.
Joe met Phoebe at hop-picking time in 1929.
Joe: Well, round the campfire at night after we finished hop-picking. She come down to see my sister-in-law, you see, to have a word or two with her, I suppose. And I sat there playing the violin. And we started speaking, and…
Phoebe: My husband, he started to talk about the hop picking, and I was rather bashful and shy. And I didn’t know much to say at all. As a matter of fact, I was afraid, really, to speak to him, thinking my father and mother would hear me.
Joe: Well… I thought you were shy and so was I.
Phoebe: I were really smiling at him playing the fiddle, you know, and his brother, you see. Keep looking at me and he keep nodding his head, you see, ‘awards ‘im playing this fiddle, because his brother just couldn’t stand the row. We were grinning at each other, you know, but at the time being I never had any more thought of courting or marrying him than flying. And then he said to me “I’d like to write to you when I go home, would you like to write to me?” I said “Well, you can write and I’ll answer your letters”. And then next year, they come down hop-picking and you said to me, “Would you marry me?” I said, “Well, I’m not old enough really. I’m only seventeen”. So he said there’s lots of girls and boys get married at seventeen and eighteen.
Joe: She was a trouble. I kept writing, you know? And she kept saying she’d see, and all this sort of thing and I got fed up. And every weekend I had off I used to go down there. Never used to go down home because I wouldn’t dare, you see. Her father wouldn’t let her out if I went down home. She say to me “Well, I’ll meet you at the bus stop at Canterbury”, which was the nearest point, you see, where the buses come in, and that’s how we done our courting, and we never did go to the pictures. 1
After a year of this rather frustrating courtship, they ran off together and settled at West Tilbury in Essex. They were married on 27th October 1930, and their first son, Joseph (later to be known as ‘Big Joe’) was born in 1932.
Phoebe recalled
We had our babies in the first year we were married and I was very ill for quite a long time after the baby was born. His name was Joe. I remember when he were borned, the doctor said to me “You’ve got a lovely baby boy”. He goes “8 pound and a quarter”. Of course, I was thrilled to death. He had long black hair, you know, and beautiful red, rosy cheeks, lovely pink complexion. And I said “Can I hold him?” He said “Yes” and ‘course I hold him for a little while and they brought the cot in, put him to bed. But oh, he was a lovely babe. But he never did cry. And the nurses used to call him ‘Peaceful Joe’.
And, all at once, you know, as I stopped there having my breakfast the nurse come running in and she said “I’ve just had your husband on the phone, Mrs. Smith”, she said. “My goodness”, she said., “I thought”, she said, “he were going to come right down the phone when I told him you had a lovely boy”.
To which Joe added
Well, I didn’t know anything about it, you see. I was working and I know she went to hospital because I went with her, practically. And she was ill overnight, you see. Well next morning I rang through, at the time when the babe was born… First time being a father, I didn’t know what to make of it.
In course of time Joe and Phoebe had seven sons: Joe, Henry, Israel (Nick), John, Emmanuel (Manny), Fred and Tom. Joe’s birth was registered in the Croydon district. The births of subsequent children were registered in the Billericay, Orsett, Thurrock or Chelmsford districts of Essex, with the youngest, Thomas being registered at Ipswich, Suffolk in 1953.
By the time of the September 1939 Register Joe had found them a home at 57 St Chad’s Road, Tilbury, Essex. His occupation was given as “Caterpillar Driver – Oil Co”. He was navvying with pick and shovel at the start of the war, but then moved on to operating a D8 Caterpillar for around eighteen months:
And of course working one day and this machine come on there, this new machine. And it’s only about the second one in the country then. The D8 Caterpillar, a big Caterpillar, the D8 Caterpillar with a 12 yard scraper at the back. And we was cutting chalk, you see. And I stood looking at this machine and the foreman says to me, then – well I was interested in it – he said, “Do you think you could make a go of that?” And I said “Yes”. “Well,” he said, “go on, get on with it”.
This may have been a sedentary job, but it was physically demanding, and with a 180 horse power engine constantly revving it was so loud that Joe had to get off and walk away from the machine before he could hear what anyone was saying to him.
I have come ‘ome of a night time with, with my arms aching so I could hardly make a cigarette. Arm work all the time. It’s a sitting down job, but you have a strain on your arms all the time.
He also got diesel rash from working on the machine.
I had diesel rash. And your face all comes out. So I couldn’t shave about six weeks.
His war work for the Air Ministry took him to Scotland at one point.
So I went to Scotland. I thought it was beautiful. I used to walk down Princes Street Garden. I think it was the wonderfullest place I ever been.
The work was even harder, however, as the frosty ground was so hard “we have to rip it up with the rippers before we can pick it up”.
At some point around 1943 Phoebe and Joe moved to Melton near Woodbridge, and this is where they remained for the rest of their lives. An obituary of his son Nick recalled that
It wasn’t a particularly easy childhood, the family were bombed out of 2 houses during the war, which led his father Joe, to come up to Suffolk and buy some land in Melton – now named Smithfields – just opp Fairhead and Sawyer. Following the family tradition, they moved out of the home each spring, to work in the fields and come harvest time, Nick would be fruit picking and hop picking, before returning to Melton for the winter.2
In 1952 Joe was fined £2 for keeping two dogs without a licence. Reporting this, the local newspaper described him as a firewood merchant,3 but he subsequently moved into the scrap-metal business, also selling any antiques that Phoebe picked up – “I like to keep buying plenty. I can keep selling plenty then. And you earn plenty of money. Love it”. In addition, the family continued to do seasonal agricultural work.
Near a small Suffolk market town is a well-conducted scrap metal business run by Joe Smith and some of his sons. Next to the yard, in a neat garden, stands the Smiths’ bungalow (built mostly by family labour) surrounded by the trailers of the Smith boys and their families.4
Mike Yates, who began to visit the Smiths a little later in the 1970s wrote:
In those days Phoebe and her husband Joe were living in a bungalow at the side of a moderately busy road. There was a small scrap yard at the side of their home, where Joe and his sons worked.5
They had also kept a caravan some eighty miles away at Potton in Bedfordshire, as reported in the Biggleswade Chronicle, 22nd October 1971:
Wants to keep his caravan on Potton site
Pressing his case to be allowed to keep his caravan on land at Myers Road, Potton, a man told a planning inquiry recently he had nowhere else to go, if he had to leave the site.
Mr. Joseph Smith had asked Biggleswade RDC for permission to station his caravan on the land, but the council, acting for the county council, have refused.
Mr. Smith said he lived in the caravan with his wife and two children. For 28 years he lived at Woodbridge, Suffolk, but he frequently came to the Potton area to work in agriculture in the summer. In the winter he dealt in wood, scrap metal, and did casual farm work. He would rather have a base in Bedfordshire than move back to Woodbridge each winter.
“I have tried to buy a house in this area but I have been unsuccessful, as I am unable to get a mortgage. I have no regular income,” he said.
He bought the land in 1970, and at the time there was a caravan on it, occupied by a Mr. Ward.
SCREENED
His caravan cost £1,450, and it has mains water, bathroom, basin and flush toilet, it is not connected to the mains. There was also an outside toilet, and a soakaway dealt with surface water.
A hedge at the front of the site screened it from the road, and there was a railway embankment at the rear. He did not bring to the site any scrap metal and it was not his intention to do so.
Mr. A. W. Dennis, 2 Blackbird Street, Potton, county councillor for Potton, said the nearest approved caravan site was at Henlow. There was one at Stratton Park, Biggleswade, but that had numerous restrictions, and the county council been unsuccessful in attempts to get people on to this site.
The land on which the caravans stand was used as a rubbish dump until Mr. Smith took it, and his use of the land represented an improvement.
He owned the land before Mr. Smith — it was handed down to him in his grandfather’s will. He went to considerable expense to clear the ground and then sold it.
Mr. Peter England, assistant area planning officer, said the county council’s policy for Potton was for rounding off and infilling only within the existing limits. Mr. Smith’s land was outside what was regarded as the present and reasonable future development limits.
Any development outside this limit would have to be in the essential interests of agricultural management, and this had not been shown.
Residential caravans should be located on approved sites, on which suitable facilities were available.
Answering Mr. Timothy Sills, who represented Mr. Smith, Mr. England said this was not a “down” on caravans. The position would have been the same if Mr. Smith had applied to build a house on the site.
Joe is quoted here as saying that he and Phoebe had lived at Woodbridge for 28 years, and from this we can deduce that they had moved there in around 1943.
Peter Kennedy was given Phoebe and Joe’s details by various of her Scamp relations in Kent. He first visited them in 1954:
May 26th Wednesday – May 28th Friday: To Woodbridge Area. To Melton
Called on Smith’s (gypsies) – name given by Scamp’s in Kent — at first told they had moved! Eventually discovered that Joe Smith would be back later but was out scrap-metal dealing.
[…]
Spent evening with Joe Smith and wife (Mrs Smith is sister of Mrs Smith we recorded at Rainham and of Mrs Stanley alias Mrs Bird). Arranged recording evening Sunday. Joe Smith plays reels, hornpipes etc. on the fiddle — our first gipsy fiddler.6
The recording session planned at that time appears not to have taken place, and he was unsuccessful once again in 1955:
JUNE 15th. Left London and collected caravan at Woodbridge. Were not able to record Smiths. (gypsy singer and fiddler) as they were away for a few days 7
Kennedy finally managed to record Phoebe’s singing on Sunday 9th July 1956, although “Joe her husband had unfortunately hurt his hand in the meantime and was unable to play step-dance tunes on fiddle”.8 Joe did contribute to the conversation, however, and can be heard talking on Kennedy’s Folktracks release I am a Romany, (Folktrax FTX100, 1975). Kennedy later wrote
Although Phoebe & Joe were living in a bungalow with hop-plants in the garden, they still had their wagons there, alongside their scrap-metal business, and most of the chat and singing was around the campfire.9
Kennedy returned to make further recordings in 1962, and it was presumably on this occasion that he finally managed to record Joe playing the fiddle. On one of these visits he also recorded their eldest son Joe singing ‘The Riddle Song’ (Roud 330), and playing harmonica for Phoebe to dance to.
Songs
Lavender (Roud 854)
Oxford City (Roud 218)
The Squire and the Gypsy (Roud 229)
This, and subsequent direct quotations are from the cassette I am a Romany, Folktrax FTX100 (1975) ↩︎
Bill Scamp was the father of the singers Phoebe Smith and Charlie Scamp, and he was the source of some of the songs in Phoebe’s repertoire, including ‘Captain Thunderbolt’.
He was born – according to the information at findagrave.com – at Selling on 18th December 1851. He was the son of Riley Scamp and Sarah, née Lee. The 1861 census found the family living “In Tents, Broom Street, Graveney, Faversham”. Riley was listed as “Vagrant”. With him were three sisters and five brothers, their ages ranging from one to seventeen. Both William and his parents have proved elusive when searching the 1871 census, but in 1881 Riley and Sarah were in a “Gipseys Tent” at South Wall, Deal, while William was recorded at “New England under a Tent, Mersham”. His occupation was given as “Cutter & brazier” and he had with him two daughters and two sons, aged between 1 and 6: Clara Ann, Oliver, Betsy and George.
The Findagrave website records that in 1873 he married Louisa Lee, the daughter of Henry Lee and Mary Riley. She was born at Greenhithe on 10th May 1850, and bore William no fewer than sixteen children between 1870 and 1890 (this discrepancy between the birth of their first child and the date of their marriage rather flies in the face of the normal assertions – made for instance by Jasper Smith – that once a man and woman lay together they were considered married in the eyes of the Romany community). Sadly, one week after giving birth to her final child in 1892, she was admitted to Cane Hill Asylum, Coulsdon, Surrey. She died there on 26th Feb 1892, aged just 41, and was buried in the hospital cemetery.1
A couple of years after Louisa’s death Bill found himself in court and, subsequently, in prison. The Sussex Daily News, 26th September 1894, reported on his initial court hearing as follows:
REMARKABLE CHARGES OF THEFT.— William Scamp Mathews, a gipsy, was charged with stealing a brown mare, valued £12, at Crowborough, in October, 1893, the animal being the property of Frank Tompsett. Prosecutor said he turned the mare out in a field on October 12th, 1893, about 150 yards from his house, and fastened the gate. The next morning the mare was missing. On October 18th prosecutor and P.C. Allchorn went to New Cross, and found the mare in the yard of a person named Price. Witness did not know the prisoner. James Botton, of New Cross, deposed that he hired some stabling of Mr. Price. Prisoner, in October last year, drove up with the horse and wanted to sell it. Witness purchased the horse, cart, and harness for £6, and prisoner gave him a receipt for the money. Witness suspected subsequently that the horse, etc., had been stolen, and asked for his money back from Mathews. The latter said he had only £5 left, but would borrow the other and let him have it. Witness, however, saw no more of the man or the money. Witness gave up the horse and cart to Tomsett when the latter called with the police at New Cross. Prisoner here asked the Bench to make things light for him, as he had a lot of children, who were without a mother. He would not admit, however, that he had intended to steal the horse and cart. John Price, of Hale-street, Deptford, deposed that he let stables for hire. He remembered seeing a man drive up to his yard in October last year, and offer to sell a horse, cart, and harness, but witness did not purchase them. Witness had his suspicions, and informed the police of the matter. Witness had given the horse at his yard some good Deptford oats and beans, something better than Crowborough toppings (laughter). P.C. Allchorn deposed to finding the horse and cart at New Cross, and said he received Mathews on Monday week from the police at Tonbridge. Prisoner said he did not know where Crowborough was, but afterwards stated that he had been at Crowborough 14 years ago. Witness, however, had seen prisoner at Crowborough many times. Mathews was committed for trial at next Sussex Quarter Sessions.—He was next charged with stealing a light cart, valued at £12, from Thomas Smith, farmer, of Crowborough, on October, 1893. Prosecutor said he missed the cart from his yard at Crowborough, and had since identified it as his property. The previous witness Tompsett gave evidence as to finding the cart at New Cross, and P.C. Allchorn corroborated. Mathews was committed toc trial on this charge also.—Prisoner was further charged with stealing harness, valued at £2, from Job Smith. Job Smith, a dealer, said the harness was brass-mounted, and had been stolen from under a van at Crowborough on October 13th, 1893. The harness stolen was worth £2, and he identified it as his property. Prisoner was also committed for trial on this charge.
Essentially the same facts were rehearsed at the full trial, as reported in the Surrey Mirror, 20th October 1894
STEALING A CART : ROTHERFIELD
William Scamp, alias Mathew, 42, labourer, was indicted for feloniously stealing a mare, the property of Frank Tomsett, at Rotherfield, on October 12th, 1893; also for stealing on October 12th, 1893, a set of harness, the property of Job Smith; for stealing on October 18th, 1893, a cart, the property of Henry Smith.—Mr. W. W. Grantham prosecuted.—The charge of stealing the cart was first taken, and Mr. Henry Smith deposed to missing the vehicle on the day in question. He afterwards recovered it from the police.—A witness, named Botten, deposed to buying a cart from the prisoner in October 1893. He subsequently found something was wrong, and handed the cart over to the police.—P.C. Hawthorne said he received information about the matter about twelve months ago. About a month ago he saw prisoner at Crowborough, and arrested him.—Prisoner was found guilty, and a previous conviction was proved by a warder of the Canterbury prison.—The other charges were not proceeded with.—Prisoner asked for leniency on the ground that he had a large family, and no mother to look after them.— Sentenced to six months’ hard labour.
The previous conviction alluded to might have been for assault (Kentish Gazette, 12th July 1892), or being drunk and disorderly (Kentish Gazette, 20th May 1893). But, unusually, in neither case does the newspaper report mention that the defendant was a Gypsy; and, besides, there was at least one other man by the name of William Scamp living in Canterbury around this time.
In pleading for leniency with regard to the charges of theft, Bill sates that “he had a large family, and no mother to look after them”. Now, clearly, the children by his first wife Louisa had lost their mother. However later census data suggests that Bill had quickly remarried following Louisa’s death. His second wife was Ann Jones, who had been born at Forest Row, in Sussex, and their first child, Sydney, was born at Bexhill, Sussex, in March 1893. The 1901 census found the family residing at Stowting Lane, Stowting. The children with them at this time are listed below.
First name
Relationship to Head
Age
George
Son
21
Saul
Daughter
16
Clementine
Daughter
14
William
Son
13
Flory
Daughter
11
Absey
Daughter
9
Sidney
Son
7
Riley
Daughter
5
Sam
Son
2
Polly
Daughter
1
Presumably Absey was the final child born to Louisa, Sidney the first born to Ann.
Bill’s occupation in this census was given as “Hawker & peg maker”. His 21-year-old son George was down as “Peg maker”. A marginal note made by the enumerator states “All these people are living in tents. Gipseys alias Pikeys”.
By the time their daughter Phoebe was born in 1913 her parents had partially settled, although they still travelled around Kent and Essex for seasonal agricultural work. Phoebe was born in Tanner Street, Faversham. She told Peter Kennedy that when she was about four years old they went to live in Herne Bay, then to Ramsgate, when she was about ten, and later to Ickham. In 1921, the census enumerators found the family at Mystole Encampment, near Chilham. The children living with Bill and Ann at that time were listed as Sydney, Nigger, Joe, Louisa, Charlie, Edward, Henry, with seven-year-old Phoebe being the youngest. They were at that time going by the name of Matthews.2 The birth places listed for the children are evidence of the family’s peripatetic lifestyle: Bexhill, Hunton, Tenterden, Chilham and Faversham.
Bill Scamp died aged 79 at Minster-in-Thanet, on 22nd May 1931. He was buried in the cemetery at Minster-in-Thanet.3
20th century records generally have the surname as Matthews with two Ts, while those from the 19th century appear to spell the name Mathews with one T. Since the family themselves were almost certainly illiterate, this can be put down to the preferences of census enumerator and others when transcribing the name. ↩︎
Ann was the second wife of William Scamp, and the mother of the singers Phoebe Smith and Charlie Scamp. She was the source of several of the songs in Phoebe Smith’s repertoire, including ‘Young Ellender’ and ‘Higher Germany’.
In 1921, when the family were camping at Mystole near Chilham, they were listed in the census under their alternative surname of Matthews. Ann was 53 years old, and her birth place was given as Forest Row (between East Grinsted and Crowborough), in Sussex. Her occupation was given as “Licence Hawker”, although asked by Peter Kennedy if her mother was a travelling person, Phoebe replied “Well, not exactly, really”. “Betwixt and between?” suggested Kennedy – “Yeah, my grandfather, was a bailiff on a farm”. Kennedy later noted that Phoebe’s mother was “Annie Jones, a wardrobe dealer from Crowborough, Sussex”.1
Ann and Bill must have married shortly after the death of his first wife Louisa in 1892, given that their first son, Sydney, was born in March 1893. Bill Scamp died in 1931. In September 1939 the widowed Ann, along with her son Sidney – both still using the Matthews surname – were recorded as being in a caravan at Brook Gardens, Sevenscore, Minster. She died on 3rd September 1940, aged 67 years, and was buried in All Saints Churchyard, Biddenden. Her gravestone includes the inscription “Dear Mum I will not forget you Phoebe”.2
When recorded by Peter Kennedy, after singing the song ‘Molly Varden’, Phoebe Smith said “My uncle used to sing that one”. The following conversation then ensued:
Peter Kennedy: Tell us about your uncle, then. His name was George?
Phoebe Smith: Well, his name was George Scamp. Yes. And he was really a great singer. He could sing any song, any style, you know, like a lady or a gentleman. He had a beautiful voice… voice of all… all types you know, all types of songs. He could really fit in and sing them lovely. And he yes, he used to sing that very well.
PK: He travelled the country, didn’t it?
PS: Yes he was a great traveller.
PK: And what part of the country did he used to…?
PS: Well, he used to travel all around England, you know, and of course, I mean, I was very young then, I don’t really know much about him. I used… come and see us, you know, he always used to make a fuss of me, pick me up and carry me in his arms and all that. But not really old enough then to know much about him, you see, ‘cause… I mean, I were the youngest one of the family, and of course they were all getting on [word indistinct] you see when I were growing up.
PK: Did he travel by himself or with another family or…?
PS: No, with his own family, just with his own family.
PK: In a waggon?
PS: Yes. Waggon, horse. Well, I mean, as the family grew up he had more you see. Two, two or three. Because he had a nice family and he had another son, he had a son named Henry, and oh, he were a marvellous singer. He was really a beautiful singer.1
George Scamp was a younger brother of Phoebe’s father, William, and he was in his mid-fifties when Phoebe was born. He was baptised on 23rd February 1858 at the church of Saints Peter & Paul, Charing. He was the son of Riley Scamp and Sarah, née Lee. The family’s residence at the time was given as “Camped in the Road in Westwell”. Three years later, at the time of the 1861 census, George was with his parents, five brothers and three sisters, “In Tents, Broom Street, Graveney, Faversham”.
It was probably the same George Scamp who, aged thirteen in 1871, the census enumerators found in one of several gypsy tents at Borstal Heath, Plumstead, Woolwich. His birth place was given as “Kent, Cherry” but that could easily have been a mishearing of Charing. The Head of the household was recorded as Salamander Scamp, a 24 year old woman, whose name does not appear in any other official records. With her were five brothers: Riely, Sampson, Cloranda, George and Sidney; and two sisters: Mary and Marrille. Their ages ranged from five to twenty four, and all were listed as “Hawker of bee hives etc.”
Ten years later he was back with his parents in East Kent, camped at South Wall, Deal. His father, Riley, was listed as “Grinder (artiz)”. George’s older brother Sampson was listed as having “No fixed occupation”, and this designation was probably intended to apply to the entries which followed his on the census – namely George, Mary, Marsala (presumably the “Marille” listed in the 1871 census) and Sidney.
He is next found in the 1921 census, at the age of 63 and 4 months, lodging in the house of Mrs Susan Harold Marsden, at Pine Hurst, Smeeth. His occupation was given as Labourer, with the note “Tramps from town to town Labourer”; “No fixed place” is given in the ‘Place of Work’ column. Boarding with him was a 61-year-old “General Dealer”, Gilderoy Scamp, who was, presumably, related in some way (incidentally, this same Gilderoy Scamp had been lodging with Mrs Marsden ten years earlier, when she was living in Cheriton).
George is shown in the 1921 census as being married – and we know from Phoebe Smith that he had a family, including a son named Henry – but, not unusually, no record of his marriage has been found. Likewise I have not positively identified his date of death; although, possibly, he was the George Scamp whose death was recorded at Romford in Essex in the second quarter of 1931.
Referring to the song ‘The Jolly Herring’, Peter Kennedy wrote that “Phoebe Smith learned this song from her uncle, Oliver Scamp, a travelling horse-dealer, when they had their wagons in the Ramsgate district of Kent”1. Mike Yates, writing in 1998, noted that Phoebe’s uncle, Oliver Scamp, a Kentish horse-dealer, was an important source of songs. He also quoted Kennedy saying that Phoebe’s song ‘The Oxford Girl’ came from her uncle Oliver, “a Ramsgate tinker who could make a kettle out of a penny”.2
Maud Karpeles, meanwhile, refers to the Oliver Scamp whom she and Peter Kennedy met in January 1954 as Charlie Scamp’s (and therefore also Phoebe Smith’s) brother. Kennedy wrote that Oliver had a bad cold “but we would like to return and record himself, his son, Oliver and his little daughter Sylvia”.3
This suggests that there were three separate singers named Oliver Scamp (although, sadly, we have recordings of none of them). There were in fact several people in East Kent with this name in the first half of the twentieth century. It is not possible, for example, to identify which Oliver Scamp it was who appeared in court in December 1915, along with a Sidney and James Scamp, charged with poaching rabbits near Doddington – and who, when apprehended by a keeper, “told him his name was Cauliflower Joe, Sittingbourne”.4 But it is possible to identify Charlie and Phoebe’s uncle Oliver, their much older half-brother Oliver – both of whom were probably the source of some of Phoebe’s songs – and, tentatively, to suggest the identities of the two men who Karpeles and Kennedy met in 1954.
Oliver Scamp, c1844–1925
The uncle of Charlie and Phoebe Scamp. His parents were Riley Scamp and Sarah, née Lee who, at the time of the 1861 census, were recorded as living “In Tents, Broom Street, Graveney, Faversham”. With them were six sons (Oliver, Riley, William, Samson, Clarence and George) and three daughters (Charlotte, Cinamentta and Mary). All of the family had been born in Kent. For Riley – occupation “Vagrant” – the census enumerator appears to have written “Kent NK The Parishes”, presumably meaning “parish not known”. For the other members of the family the place of birth is given as “Kent – do” (ditto).
Oliver’s age in 1861 appears to be recorded as 19 (or possibly 17), suggesting he was born circa 1841-1844. An Oliver Scamp was baptised on 22nd October 1843 at Wingham, St Mary the Virgin. His mother was Sarah, which tallies with this being the same person; although the name of his father, a “travelling tinker”, was given as Oliver which, clearly, does not.
It is highly probable that it was this Oliver and his father who were the subject of a court report in the Thanet Advertiser, 24th October 1868:
TWO SCAMPS IN TROUBLE–Two men named respectively Riley Scamp and Oliver Scamp were charged by Jas. Taddy Friend, Esq., with wilfully and maliciously doing injury to a “live” fence to the value of 6d. On the 18th instant.–They both pleaded guilty.—P.S. Hoad, K.C.C., stated that on Sunday evening he was coming past Northdown, when he saw the two defendants cutting Mr. Friend’s hedge. They had cut enough to make a faggot. He told them he must detain them until Mr. Friend returned from church, and subsequently took them to the police-station.–Mr. Friend informed the Bench that he did not wish to press the case hard against the men, and asked that they might be leniently dealt with. He merely preferred the charge to make an example.—The Bench taking this into consideration fined defendants 1s. each, 3d. each for the damage due, and 6s. 6d. the costs each.–The money was immediately paid.
The same Oliver Scamp (occupation “Gypsy”) could be found in 1871 living with his wife Letitia and three year old son Riley, “Near Rainham Mark Top of Soapers Lane”. In 1881 Oliver, now a widower, with son Riley and an 8 year old daughter Sabrina, were at “South Wall Gipseys Tent, Deal, Eastry”.
By 1901 he had remarried with a woman called Mary, 22 years his junior. They were “Living in Tent Manstone Fields, Manstone, St Lawrence Extra, Thanet”. His occupation was “Working cutler”. Mary’s place of birth was given as Deal, Kent, but later censuses, which have her name as Mary Jane, give her birthplace as the non-existent “Hengley”, Staffordshire (1911), or more probably Hanley, Staffordshire (1921). It seems that she was Mary Jane Casserley (although there is no record of anyone by that name having been born in Hanley) and she married “Henry Oliver Scamp” on 26th December 1898 at the Congregational Church in Ramsgate. There is no mention of a Henry Oliver Scamp in Ramsgate in other official records, so it seems this must have been the man usually referred to as Oliver Scamp.
It may well have been the same Oliver Scamp, “a swarthy-skinned son of the Romany” who was fined 12 shillings at Ramsgate Police Court in July 1899 for being drunk and disorderly in the High Street. “He said it was rheumatism, not drink, and that he would do the seven days. His wife, however, paid the fine and Oliver was allowed to go”.5
An early indication that theirs was not a happy marriage can be found in a brief notice in the ‘Miscellaneous’ section of the Thanet Advertiser, 30th December 1899, which reads simply “MARY JANE SCAMP – Please write or come home to Ramsgate”. Clearly Mary Jane was back with her husband at the time of the 1901 census, and ten years later Oliver and Mary Jane – no longer living in a tent it would seem – were at 4 Bolton Street, Ramsgate. He was 68 years old. His birth place was shown as Wingham, and his occupation was given as “Cuttler”. Living with him were six nephews and three nieces, including two other Oliver Scamps – a thirteen-year-old, and a 35-year-old “dealer in horses”, who was almost certainly the son of Oliver’s brother Bill.
The Thanet Advertiser for 18th November 1916 contained the sensational news that Mary Jane had been arrested and charged with bigamy:
BIGAMY CHARGE.
RAMSGATE WOMAN & SOLDIER
A charge of bigamy was preferred at the Ramsgate police court yesterday (Friday), against Mary Jane Scamp, of High-street, St. Lawrence.
The defendant was charged with marrying and taking to husband Henry William Taylor, on November 20th, 1915, her former husband, Henry Oliver Scamp. to whom she was previously married on December 26, 1898, being then alive.
The defendant, a middle-aged woman respectably dressed in black, was arrested on Thursday.
Taylor, a soldier with whom she was alleged to have gone through the form of marriage last November, was not present and the Chief Constable said he intended after evidence of arrest had been given, to apply for a remand.
Detective-Sergt. Duff, who received certain on September 28th, said enquiries were instituted, as a result of which on Thursday he received a warrant for the arrest of the defendant. At about 1.10 p.m. he saw her at 26, High, street, St. Lawrence, and told her who he was, adding, “Are you Mary Jane Scamp?” She replied, “Yes.” He then asked what was her former name, and she replied, “Casserly.” “Was your father a scaffolder?” he next enquired, and the reply was in the affirmative. He then said, “It is alleged you married a man named Henry William Taylor.” She said “Yes.” Witness replied, “What do you mean by ‘Yes’,” whereupon defendant said, “That I am listening to you.” Witness continued, “You married him at Romford, on November 20th, 1915, and I have a warrant to take you to the police station on that charge.” Defendant said, “Yes, I will own up to it. It is true.” While she was getting her hat and coat defendant said, “It was done in ignorance. I had been living with him and we heard my husband was dead. Have you fetched Taylor yet?” Witness replied, “No—What letters or papers have you about you now?” She replied, “Only my marriage lines with Taylor,” and witness took possession of the certificate.
When charged at the police station, defendant said “We heard he was dead. I was living with the man. We got married.”
Witness also produced a certificate of the marriage between Mary Jane Casserly and Henry Oliver Scamp, at Ramsgate Congregational Church, on December 26, 1898
Upon this evidence, defendant was remanded until Monday.
Further details of the case appeared in the following week’s newspaper, dated 25th November:
STORY OF TWO MARRIAGES.
RAMSGATE WOMAN CONFRONTED WHEN CHERRY-PICKING.
The two men with whom Mrs. Mary Jane Scamp, of High-street, St. Lawrence, was alleged to have gone through the marriage ceremony, gave evidence at the Ramsgate police court on Monday.
Mrs. Scamp was charged on remand with bigamously marrying a soldier, and when arrested was stated to have said to Detective-Sergt. Duff, “It was done in ignorance. I had been living with him and we heard my husband was dead, so we got married.”
Henry William Taylor, private in the Royal Sussex Regiment, who described himself as a single man, now stated that he first met the accused about three years ago at Sittingbourne. He became on friendly terms with her, and they lived together at Sittingbourne, Gravesend and Romford. During that time she left him twice but did not tell him where she bad been. On 20th November, 1915, they went through the form of marriage at Romford Registry Office. Accused then described herself as a widow, aged forty years. They afterwards lived at 94, London Road, Romford, and then at 8, Crooked-lane, Graveseend, until 14th June last, when he joined the Army.
Henry Oliver Scamp, cutler, living at 26, St. Lawrence, said he married the accused at the Ebenezer Chapel, Ramsgate, on Boxing Day, 1899. Her maiden name was Casserley.
Shown a marriage certificate, witness said he could not read it as he had never been to school in his life.
PICKING CHERRIES TOGETHER.
Continuing, witness said his wife frequently left him. 0n 27th February, 1915, a letter containing a postal order arrived and his wife left him. In the summer of 1915 he saw her picking cherries near Sittingbourne with Taylor. She agreed to come home with him, but while he was at the station, inquiring the time of the train, she disappeared. Taylor knew she was his wife as he had seen the marriage lines at Chilton. In August this year be went to Gravesend and again saw his wife. They went and had a drink, and she came back to Ramsgate with him. She denied having been married again. Letters kept arriving for her, and she left home once more in September. Later he went to Faversham, where he found his wife and brought her home. He questioned her again, and eventually she admitted having gone through a second marriage.
Formally charged, defendant only said : “We heard my first husband was dead—that was the reason we got married. Otherwise I was perfectly happy as I was—happier than I have ever been.”
Committed to take her trial at Maidstone Assizes during the week end, Mrs. Scamp turned to Taylor and said sadly, “Goodbye, Harry, ta-ta ! “
When asked if he would agree to go to Maidstone to give evidence against his wife, Mr. Scamp remarked drily, “Yee, I’ll go anywhere—up to Heaven.”
Defendant left the court with a final emphatic “Good-bye” to the soldier.
A separate article in the same issue reported that she had been sentenced to three months’ imprisonment:
At the Kent Assizes, held at Maidstone on Thursday, Mrs. Mary Jane Scamp, of 26, High-street, St. Lawrence, Ramsgate, was sentenced to three months’ imprisonment for bigamously marrying a soldier.
[…]
The Judge, in sentencing the woman, said he could find no redeeming feature about the case. Defendant had been living a bad life, although her husband bad tried to do his best for her.
When reported in the Kentish Gazette, 2nd December 1916, it emerged that Mary Jane had pleaded guilty and had been sentenced to three months’ hard labour.
Despite all of this, the 1921 the census showed that Oliver and Mary Jane Scamp were living together at 26 Rodney Street, Ramsgate. At 77 years old he was still working as a cutler. Mary Jane was employed as a charwoman. Oliver died in Thanet at the age of 81, in the first quarter of 1925.
Phoebe Scamp was barely 8 years old when this this Oliver Scamp died. It is by no means impossible that she would have learned some songs from him – there is a well-known recording of a six-year-old Gypsy girl, Sheila Smith, recorded by Peter Kennedy in Sussex in 1952.6 And this uncle, who worked as a cutler, could surely have been the “Ramsgate tinker who could make a kettle out of a penny”. However there was another Oliver Scamp, who Phoebe might well have called her uncle, who was a “travelling horse-dealer” from Ramsgate, and from whom she might therefore have learned some of her repertoire.
Oliver Scamp, 1875–1934
The son of Riley Scamp and his first wife Louisa, née Lee, who bore him sixteen children before her death at Cane Hill Asylum, Coulsdon, Surrey in 18927. He was thus a half-brother to Phoebe and Charlie, and nephew of the Oliver Scamp described above. He was born at Hoath, about four miles South of Herne Bay, on 25th May 18758, and his birth was registered in the Blean district. At the time of the 1911 census he was living with his uncle Oliver at 4 Bolton Street, Ramsgate. He was 35 years old, and his occupation was given as “Dealer in horses”.
This Oliver Scamp has proved elusive in other census records. His death was recorded in the Medway district in the first quarter of 1934, at the age of 58, and he was buried at the Woodland Road Cemetery, Gillingham on 23rd January 1934. His burial record states “Died at St Bartholomew’s Hospital, Rochester. Removed from/Address St Augustine”.
Given the four decade difference in their ages, Phoebe Smith might well have regarded her half-brother Oliver as an uncle9. The notes to the song ‘The Jolly Herring’ on the Caedmon LP The Folk Songs of Britain Volume X: Animal Songs (Caedmon Records TC1225, 1961) have this to say about the source of the song:
Phoebe Smith learned this song from her uncle, Oliver Scamp, a travelling horse-dealer, when they had their wagons in the Ramsgate district of Kent. Phoebe described her uncle:
“A big “upstruck” built man, lovely looking, really one of the finest looking men in the world. The Scamp family were all horse-dealers and slaughtermen, all well-to-do people, nothing cheap and poor. Like yourself, sir, they like to go places, meet the people and have a good time. I think everyone ought to go about more. When people see you live in a caravan (trailer) they say: O they’re gipsies, but perhaps you’re not such a gipsy as what they are!”
Given that he died in 1934, this half-brother of Phoebe and Charlie Scamp was clearly not the Oliver Scamp that Maud Karpeles and Peter Kennedy met in 1954, and whom Karpeles described as Charlie Scamp’s brother.
Oliver Scamp, 1905–1977
Louisa Scamp, 1905–?
Oliver Scamp, 1925–2003
When Maud Karpeles and Peter Kennedy came on their song collecting trip to Kent in January 1954, they visited a Mrs Bird at Bettenham, near Cranbrook:
She gave us the names of several members of her family, including her brothers, Charles Scamp at Chartham Hatch, near Canterbury, and Oliver Scamp, between Rochester and Sittingbourne, both of whom have a big repertory of songs which they learned from their parents. The Scamps are a big Romany clan scattered all over Kent and most of them seem well-to-do.10
Mrs Bird was almost certainly Phoebe and Charlie Scamp’s older sister Mary, known as Polly. Although she sang a few songs for Karpeles and Kennedy, she was suffering from laryngitis and was unable to hold a tune. The collectors then visited Charlie Scamp and recorded several songs from him. On the final day of their trip, Monday 18th January, they went
To the “Sun-in-the-Wood” at Lower Halstow, where we recorded Oliver Scamp, but he had also had a bad cold and was not up to it, but we would like to return and record himself, his son, Oliver and his little daughter Sylvia.11
The evidence is circumstantial, but a strong case can be made that these two men called Oliver Scamp, father and son, were the same people as were recorded in the September 1939 Register as hop pickers working at Frogs Hall Farm, Tenterden.
First name
Last name
Birth date
Sex
Occupation
Marital status
Oliver
Scamp
25 Dec 1902
M
General Dealer Caravan Dweller
Married
Louisa (Louie)
Scamp
17 Sep 1907
F
–
Married
Oliver
Scamp
01 Aug 1925
M
–
Single
The 1939 Register did not specify the relationships between people recorded, but it is probably safe to assume that Louisa was married to the older Oliver, and the fifteen-year-old Oliver was their son.
Mary Bird, née Scamp, was hop-picking at Frogs Hall Farm in September 1939, and given that the Scamp family sometimes found it convenient to use the surname Matthews when dealing with officialdom, we can be fairly sure that the Henry and Ted Matthews also working on the farm were her brothers, while Sam Matthews was probably a relation too, possibly one of her older half-brothers.
Looking at the birth registration records for the fifteen-year-old Oliver Scamp, we can see that when registered in the Milton district, in the third quarter of 1925, his mother’s maiden name was given as Matthews. This leads to the possibility that his mother Louisa was Charlie and Phoebe Scamp’s older sister. In the 1921 census this branch of the Scamp family was recorded under the surname Matthews. They were camped at Mystole near Chilham – William and Ann Mathews, with six sons and two daughters, Louisa and Phoebe. Louisa was fourteen at the time, which fits with a birth date of September 1907, as recorded in 1939.
Peter Kennedy very nearly provides evidence to support this theory. Writing about the first time he went to visit Joe and Phoebe Smith in Suffolk, in May 1954, Kennedy wrote:
Spent evening with Joe Smith and wife (Mrs Smith is sister of Mrs Smith we recorded at Rainham and of Mrs Stanley alias Mrs Bird).12
“Mrs Stanley alias Mrs Bird” was the sister Kennedy and Maud Karpeles had met earlier in the year near Sissinghurst. There’s no record of their having met a Mrs Smith in Kent. Surely “Smith” here is a typing error, and he meant to write “Scamp” – referring to Mrs Louisa Scamp, the wife of the Oliver Scamp he had met at Lower Halstow (about three miles from Rainham).
If this is correct, then Kennedy’s brief note is the only mention of Louisa having been recorded, or indeed, of having been a singer. If recordings were made of her them sadly, they seem to have disappeared.
And if it is correct that Louisa Scamp was Phoebe Smith’s sister, then her husband Oliver was not Charlie Scamp’s brother, as Maud Karpeles wrote, but his brother-in-law. No doubt Louisa and Oliver were related in some way, but from different branches of the very extensive Scamp family.
Louisa’s entry in the 1939 Register records her date of birth as 17th September 1907, although this appears to be erroneous – she was baptised at St Mary the Virgin, Rolvenden on 30th September 1905, and her birth date was given as 15th of that month.
In 1939, Oliver’s date of birth was given as 25th December 1902. When his death was registered in 1977, his birth date was recorded Christmas Day 1905, not 1902, but it’s possible that neither of these dates was correct: it seems probable that he was the Oliver Scamp baptised on 29th January 1905 at St Martin of Tours, Guston, near Dover, where a marginal note says “Born CHRs Day 1904”. This Oliver was the son of George and Isabella Scamp. His father’s “Quality, Trade or Profession” was given as “Gipsy”, and their abode was “G. Ellen’s field”. In 1901 the census enumerator had found them camped near Wickhambreux; George’s occupation was given as “Agricultural labourer & peg maker”.
Peter Kennedy’s notes specifically state that, despite the fact that the singer had a bad cold, he had recorded Oliver Scamp singing at the Sun-in-the-Wood pub at Lower Halstow in January 1954. No such recording seems to have survived (or, at least, no such recording has yet been indexed). But evidence that a recording was made comes from a short article in the East Kent Gazette, 16th April 1954:
Local broadcast
When the regular Sunday morning programme of English folk songs, “When I roved out,” returns to the B.B.C. in the autumn, the voice of veteran farm worker Mr. Oliver Scamp will be heard singing some of the Kentish Romany songs. He works for Mr. Archibald Bishenden at Breach Lane, Newington. Recordings were made recently at the Sun-in-the-Wood public house, Lower Halstow, when members of Mr. Scamp’s family also sang. Produced by Mr. Harold Rogers, “When I roved out” has proved a popular morning feature dealing with the folk songs of England.
In the best traditions of local newspaper reporting, the name of the popular radio programme is incorrectly given as “When I roved out” – it was actually “As I roved out”, the first series of which had been broadcast on Sunday mornings on the BBC Light Programme between 27th September 1953 and 28th March 1954. It may well have been expected that the programme would return that Autumn, although the next series did not in fact begin until 3rd April 1955 – and it is not clear if Oliver Scamp ever featured on the programme. Listings in the Radio Times show that the episode broadcast on Sunday 8th May 1955 featured songs from Kent and Sussex, while the following week the theme was ‘The Travelling People’. So it is possible that he was included in that broadcast – the Radio Times sometimes listed singers featured in the programme, but that was the exception rather than the rule.
Other local newspaper reports show that the younger Oliver, like his father, did farmwork, and lived at Breach Lane, Newington (the address is sometimes given as Breach Lane, Upchurch). These reports also suggest that he was frequently in trouble with the law.
In November 1953, with another man, he was gaoled for three months after having placed boulders on a busy main road (what would now be referred to as the A2). The committal hearings were reported thus in the Sheerness Times Guardian, 6th November 1953:
Policeman heard “terrific” noise
CAR & VAN HIT BOULDERS PLACED IN MIDDLE OF ROAD
—PROSECUTION ALLEGE
Two men charged with causing wilful damage
ALLEGATIONS that two men placed two large boulders in the middle of the main London-Canterbury Road during the night and that a car and a van crashed into them, were made in a case heard at Sheerness Magistrates’ Court on Monday.
Walter Eastwood, aged 32, of Ash Tree Lane, Chatham, and Oliver Scamp, aged 28, living in a caravan in Breach Lane, Newington, were charged with being concerned together in causing wilful damage to a car belonging to James Maxwell, of Nethercourt Gardens, Ramsgate, to the extent of £20 and to a van belonging to Sydney Edward Belson, of High Street, Chatham, to the extent of £35.
The boulders, each weighing more than half a hundredweight, were produced in Court.
Police Inspector J. Kierans, prosecuting, said that Scamp and Eastwood were arrested in the early hours of Sunday morning by Police Constable K. C. Ambrose of the traffic division, Rochester.
In evidence, Police Con. Ambrose said that he was on motor patrol duty with another officer at London Road, Upchurch, at 12.30 a.m. on Sunday.
“CROUCHING IN UNDERGROWTH”
A few yards past the Rest Tea Rooms he saw two men in the centre of the road and he saw them run off the road and crouch down in the undergrowth.
Witness got out of the car and approached t lien. They ran away but he caught Scamp.
“l then heard a terrific crashing noise and saw that a car had collided with something in the road,” said Police Con. Ambrose, “came along, hit an object and zig-zagged along the road.
Witness said that another police officer who was with him found the two large boulders in the middle of the road. Scamp was taken to Rainham Police Station and when told that he would be charged with damaging the car and the van by placing the boulders in the road, be made no reply.
Eastwood was apprehended by the police later while he was walking along the main road.
ALLEGED STATEMENTS
Both accused were taken to Sittingbourne Police Station and were charged.
Eastwood was alleged to have said “I was daft to do it,” while Scamp replied, “You prove it.”
The men were remanded in custody to appear before Sittingbourne Magistrates on Monday next.
A week later on 13th November the newspaper was able to report that Scamp and Eastwood had both been sent to prison:
MEN PUT BOULDERS IN ROAD
Gaoled for malicious damage to car and van
TWO men who two large boulders weighing more than half a hundredweight in the middle of the road, into which a car and van crashed, were sent to prison for three months at Sittingbourne Magistrates’ Court on Monday.
They were: Walter Eastwood (32), of Ash Tree Lane, Chatham, and Oliver Scamp (28) of Breach Lane, Newington. They pleaded guilty to committing malicious damage to the car and the van.
Prosecuting, Mr. N. K. Cooper said that walking home from Chatham along the main London Road at Upchurch, the men tried to thumb a lift but the motorist not stop.
It was past midnight when they came upon a parked car and asked the driver if he would take them to Chatham. But the driver told them to “clear out.”
To get their own back on the motorists, Eastwood and Scamp then placed two large boulders, each weighing more than half a hundred-weight, in the middle of the road and within a few seconds a car and a van had crashed into them.
[…]
POLICE CHASE
Scamp was caught and it was while the officers were chasing the two men that the two vehicles came along the road and collided with the obstacles.
At that time the police were unaware of the boulders in the road.
The explanation seemed to be, Mr. Cooper went on, that Eastwood and Scamp had been drinking and, while making their way along the road, had been refused lifts by motorists.
Purely out of spite for the motorists who had refused to give them a lift, they had placed boulders in the road for the purpose of bringing these motorists to grief.
[…]
In a statement to the police Eastwood had said that they were on their way home to Chatham and tried to thumb a lift, but the cars just went by.
He asked the driver of a parked car for a lift, but the driver told him to ” . . . off.” He offered the driver money, but this was refused and as he walked along the road he kept thinking about the man in the car. He threw the boulders into the road, thinking it would teach the driver a lesson.
Scamp made a similar statement, in which he said that Eastwood threw the stones into the road, saying. “l will catch him.’ •
“MIGHT HAVE CAUSED LOSS OF LIFE”
Neither of the two men had anything to say in Court. Both had previous convictions.
Oliver was in trouble again three years later. The Sheerness Times Guardian, 29th June 1956, contained a somewhat melodramatic news item which began as follows:
Mother Pleads For Gipsy Scamp
Tears in her eyes, a Gipsy’s mother appealed to Sheerness Magistrates on Monday – “Can I have my son? Can I have my son?”
Before the Court was swarthy Oliver Scamp. Head bowed, he had heard the Chairman of the Magistrates, Ald. R. W. Rule, commit him for trial at the East Kent Quarter Sessions on a charge of breaking and entering a house in Upchurch and stealing a jar of face cream, a tin of humbugs and a tin of oranges, valued at 11s. 4d.
Hearing the Police were not opposed to bail, the Chairman granted the mother’s request saying, “You’ll see he appears in Court then.”
” On my honour, Sir,” she replied gratefully.
He was fined £15 for the offence, as reported in the Kentish Express, 31st August 1956:
After coming home from drinking with his mother and father one night, Oliver Scamp, 31, farm worker of Breach-lane, Newington, near Sittingbourne, gave them the slip and broke into “Dormalee,” Breach-lane, Newington, and stole property worth 11s. 4d. from Ellen A. Golding. At the East Kent Sessions at Canterbury, on Monday Scamp was fined £15. He had three convictions of a similar nature and one of malicious damage at Sittingbourne in 1953. He comes from a gypsy family. His mother, Mrs. L. Scamp, and his aunt, Mrs. M. Bird said that that night he had too much to drink and did not know what he was doing.
The East Kent Gazette for 31st August had a longer report on the case:
Only got drunk at week-ends
UPCHURCH MAN FINED FOR BUNGALOW THEFT
When a mother told the court at the East Kent Quarter Sessions at Canterbury, on Monday, that her son only got drunk at week-ends, the chairman (Mr. Tristran Beresford, Q.C.) asked why week-ends should be a special reason for his indulgence.
Before the court was Oliver Scamp (31), of Breach Lane, Upchurch, who pleaded guilty to breaking into a bungalow known as Dormalee, Breach Lane, Upchurch, during the night of 15th June and stealing goods to the value of 11s. 4d., the property of Miss Ellen A. Golding.
[…]
Had been drinking
He denied any knowledge of the offence but later admitted it, saying he had had a lot to drink. In a statement he said he had been to a public house on the night of 15th June and had been drinking. On the way home he left his parents, went to the bungalow, smashed a window and took the articles. He did not know why he did it.
Police-sergeant Stewart said Scamp had been before the courts four times for larceny, assault, malicious damage etc. He was one of a family of gipsy extraction and had very little education. Since 1951 the family had been at Breach Lane had he had been working as a farm labourer.
Scamp had nothing to say.
Mrs. Louisa Scamp, his mother, pleading for leniency, said her son was very drunk at the time, but usually he was a very son. She then said that it was at week-ends that he got drunk.
Miss [sic] Mary Bird, his aunt, said there was nothing wrong with her nephew until drink got the upper hand of him.
Mr. C. R. Trusler (probation officer) expressed the opinion that it was not a suitable case for probation, and Scamp was fined £15 with the alternative of three months’ imprisonment.
The protestations of his mother and aunt seem plausible – whilst not wishing to condone burglary, stealing face cream, humbugs and tinned fruit (total value around £12 in 2026 prices) is hardly the work of a serious house-breaker.
The naming of his mother as Louisa Scamp is surely proof that this is the same Oliver Scamp who was a fourteen-year-old hop-picker at Tenterden in September 1939; and the fact that Mary Bird was his aunt strongly supports the proposition that it was this Oliver Scamp, and his father, who Kennedy and Karpeles met in January 1954.
It was probably the same man who was fined 10 shillings by Sittingbourne magistrates in May 1957, having been stopped by a policeman for riding his bicycle without front or rear lights or a reflector – “Oliver Scamp, of no fixed address, admitted there had never been any lights on the cycle ever since he had owned it”.13 And he may have been the Oliver Scamp who had to pay the legal costs of a husband from Lower Halstow when cited as co-respondent in a divorce case the following year.14
The elder Oliver Scamp died in 1977, his death being recorded in the Sittingbourne district in the third quarter of that year. He is buried in Sittingbourne Cemetery. The death of his son Oliver was registered in the Canterbury district in the first quarter of 2003.
As for Oliver’s “little daughter Sylvia”, who presumably sang at least one song when Kennedy and Karpeles came calling in 1954, she would have been about twelve years old at the time – her birth was registered in the Chelmsford district in Essex, in the first quarter of 1942 (with her mother’s maiden name given as Matthews). She appears to have married in the Chatham area in 1971 and died at the age of 73 in 2015. She was buried – as Sylvia Panesar – in the Woodlands Road Cemetery, Gillingham, on 6th February 2015.
Peter Kennedy, notes to The Folk Songs of Britain Volume X: Animal Songs, Caedmon Records TC1225 (LP, USA, 1961) ↩︎
Mike Yates, notes to The Yellow Handkerchief, Veteran VT136CD (2001) ↩︎
The terms “uncle” and “aunt” might well have been used more widely still – a descendant of the Scamp/Matthews family told me “when I was growing up we use to call the men our uncles and the women our aunts” – Jodie Carr, personal communication via Ancestry.com. ↩︎
Maud Karpeles, Report on Collecting Expedition in Kent, January 14 – 17, 1954 (typescript copy held at the VWML) ↩︎
Peter Kennedy, report to Marie Slocombe headed Recording Trip: The Border Country: June-July 1954, https://www.peterkennedyarchive.org/1954-2/northumberland-1954/ ↩︎
Polly Scamp was an older sister of Phoebe and Charlie Scamp. At least one of the songs in Phoebe’s repertoire – ‘Higher Germany’ – came from Polly.1
The identification of Polly with Mary Scamp comes from family historian Calum Mendham via the Findagrave website.2 She was born on 4th February 1900, and was probably the Polly Scamp registered in the Blean district in the first quarter of that year. But there is also a baptism record for a Mary Scamp which appears to relate to the same person. This is from Warehorne, dated 5th April 1900, and it gives her parents’ names as William and Ann Scamp. The official birth record for Polly gives the mother’s maiden name as Jones – and all of these details are consistent with what we know of Phoebe and Charlie’s parents.
I have not been able to locate the family of Bill and Ann Scamp in the 1911 census, either under the name of Scamp, or their alternative surname of Matthews. By June 1921 when the next census was taken Polly / Mary had married another traveller, Henry Bird, and they were to be found living in Fruitpickers’ Huts at Eynsford. Henry, born in Chatham, was 23 years old and employed as a Farm Labourer by M J Lee, Fruit Farmer. Mary, as she appeared here and in subsequent records, was shown as having been born in Margate. She was 22 years old3, and her occupation was given as “Farm Hawker”. They had a son, Henry, less than 1 year old.
At the time of the 1939 Register Mary was, unsurprisingly, to be found at the hop-picking – specifically at Frogs Hall Farm, Tenterden. She and Henry appear to have had two more children, a son and a daughter. Living alongside them were Sam, Henry and Edward Matthews. The latter two were almost certainly her brothers, Henry and Ted Matthews aka Scamp, while Sam was also most likely a relation, possibly one of her half-brothers. Louisa Scamp, who I believe to be her sister, was also at Frog’s Hall Farm with her husband Oliver and son, also Oliver.
Maud Karpeles must have encountered Polly during the course of her folk song collecting trip to Kent in October 1955:
I interviewed some gipsies, name of Stanley, at Bettenham. They know a number of songs, but I could not ask them to sing as there had just been a death in the family. I arranged to pay them a visit later on.4
Stanley was presumably a name of convenience used by Henry Bird’s family, in the same way as the Scamps would sometimes use the surname Matthews. In January the following year, Karpeles returned to Kent with Peter Kennedy, and her report makes clear that “Mrs Stanley” was Charlie Scamp’s sister:
Our main objective was Mrs Stanley (real name Mrs Bird), Bettenham, near Cranbrook, a gipsy whom I had met on my previous expedition. On our first visit she was out, but we called again on the morning of the 15th. As I suspected, she has a big repertory of songs. Unfortunately she was suffering from laryngitis. She managed to sing us a few songs, but she was unable to hold the tune and I doubt if this was entirely due to her ailment. She gave us the names of several members of her family, including her brothers, Charles Scamp at Chartham Hatch, near Canterbury, and Oliver Scamp, between Rochester and Sittingbourne, both of whom have a big repertory of songs which they learned from their parents. The Scamps are a big Romany clan scattered all over Kent and most of them seem well-to-do.5
Given the contextual information we have, this must have been Polly / Mary. Sadly no recording of the songs she sang appears to have survived, and we have no way of judging for ourselves if she was, as Karpeles implies, not a particularly skilled singer.
Peter Kennedy’s report on the same trip contains some additional information, and records the fact that Mrs Stanley not only directed the collectors towards Charlie and Oliver Scamp, but also towards Phoebe and Joe Smith in Suffolk:
Friday 15th January
To Mrs. Stanley (Bird) living in a caravan on Mrs. Stern’s farm, 3, Chimneys, Betenham, near Sissinghurst. She and her daughter Peg both had tonsilitis but we got names of large number of songs that she knew. Her life story would be well worth recording. She gave us address of her sister Mrs. Smith, Melton Meadows, Melton, Woodbridge, Suffolk. Her husband, Joe, plays fiddle and melodeon and names of other relations in Kent to whom we went the following day.6
Again, we can only regret that, while Mrs Stanley’s “life story would be well worth recording”, Kennedy never returned to record it.
The death of Mary Bird was registered in the Swale district in the first quarter of 1981. Her record on the Findagrave website states that she died in Faversham at the age of 81, on 11th March 1981, and was buried at All Saints Churchyard, Biddenden.
Phoebe’s son Manny, quoted in the booklet to the CD The Yellow Handkerchief, Veteran VT136CD, 1998. ↩︎
Mary “Polly” Scamp Bird, https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/242450993/mary-bird ↩︎
As of April 2026, the census record on the Findmypast website shows Mary as 32 years old, but checking a scan of the original document suggests that her given age was actually 22 years and 4 months; the transcription is in any case rather suspect – the family’s location is given as “Frumpockins Hunts” rather than “Fruitpickers’ Huts”! ↩︎
Maud Karpeles, Folk Song Collecting Expedition Kent October 12th – 17th 1953, VWML Archive Catalogue MK/1/2/4907. ↩︎
Maud Karpeles, Report on Collecting Expedition in Kent, January 14 – 17, 1954 (typescript copy held at the VWML) ↩︎
